Author Topic: Lithium Battery  (Read 256 times)

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Offline Old BS Guy

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Lithium Battery
« on: August 23, 2019, 01:49:23 PM »
Who out there has any experience yet with running a lithium battery with the stock charging system in their 350?
'65 BS Homer 50, '69 Mach II RS 200, '67 350 GTR,(2), '66 Sport 90 o.i., '65 90M Surf Rider, '68 100 Trail, '71 100 TMX ,'79 Honda CBX, '82 Yam 650 Turbo, '74 RD-350, '70 Triumph 500 Trophy, '65 Honda CL72 250 Scrambler, 67 Honda CL77 305 Scrambler.

Offline old smokey

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'67 350 GTR undergoing repairs with a '75 Yamaha TX500 front end

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2019, 06:54:54 AM »
        Standard battery size is 120mm long x 61mm wide x 128mm high.  Critical measurement is the width, any bigger than 61mm and it wont go in.
    It is my understanding that the backup type batteries with 1/4'' spade terminals are not designed to accept high charging or discharge rates (7 to 8 amps on GTR) so are unsuitable.

      I don't see why we shouldn't use lithium type batteries but obviously they have to fit and be designed for automobile use with buit in electronics to limit overcharging (go on fire!) and over discharging (kils them).  Be interested to hear if you find a suitable one.  Will save a bit of weight and for a 6 amp/hr is likely to be smaller than standard size, may even allow fitting of a higher rating which would be a bonus.
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Offline Old BS Guy

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2019, 11:05:48 AM »
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WPS-Fire-Power-HJB7B-FP-IL-Featherweight-Lithium-Battery-HJB7B-FP-IL-/392361030316?hash=item5b5a8a32ac

Here is a link to a current EBay item. I own one. It fits perfectly. They are not as tall, therefore a different retaining bad is needed, but that's a small effort.It weighs NOTHING. I have LI batteries in 2 other UTV's and my T100C Triumph. I also have this same exact battery in my '65 Honda CL72 250 Scrambler. The old silicon rectifier has been replaced with a solid state regulator, and it works fine. Charging without lights at idle is around 12.79V. At RPM it's just over 13V. The older bikes without real regulators are a problem. The 350GTR having a seperate mechanical regulator and a rectifier make it more adaptable. You're correct about the dry cell back up batteries. I found and purchased one of those, also, that fits the width dilemma, measuring approx. 5"L X 2"W X 4"H. It's 12V, 5.1 amp hr rating. Of course, these are more of a deep cycle reserve battery, intended for long, light slow discharge. The dry cell isn't as durable with regard to vibration, either.  The really don't like higher charging rates, nor does LI. I'm considering installing a solid state rectifier / regulator to curb that. I'm going to test the lead acid against the other 2 today with a meter to check results.
'65 BS Homer 50, '69 Mach II RS 200, '67 350 GTR,(2), '66 Sport 90 o.i., '65 90M Surf Rider, '68 100 Trail, '71 100 TMX ,'79 Honda CBX, '82 Yam 650 Turbo, '74 RD-350, '70 Triumph 500 Trophy, '65 Honda CL72 250 Scrambler, 67 Honda CL77 305 Scrambler.

Offline Old BS Guy

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2019, 11:28:44 AM »
Here's one more that's even more compelling. It's only 1.25"W, yet it's proclaiming to start electric start twin cyl. bikes with ease, and it matches the 6 amp hr. spec for the 350GTR perfectly. The second link fits, and is even better.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-Case-Lithium-Ion-Battery-AG-401-120-CA-Antigravity-Motorcycle-Apps/382785948891?hash=item591fd20cdb&_trkparms

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-Case-Lithium-Ion-Battery-AG-801-240-CA-Antigravity-Motorcycle-Apps/132957972969?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 11:34:45 AM by Old BS Guy »
'65 BS Homer 50, '69 Mach II RS 200, '67 350 GTR,(2), '66 Sport 90 o.i., '65 90M Surf Rider, '68 100 Trail, '71 100 TMX ,'79 Honda CBX, '82 Yam 650 Turbo, '74 RD-350, '70 Triumph 500 Trophy, '65 Honda CL72 250 Scrambler, 67 Honda CL77 305 Scrambler.

Offline CL-100

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2019, 02:25:01 PM »
I have one of the 4 cell Antigravity batteries for my current restoration project and it's amazing.  I've had it for more than a year and its ability to retain a set voltage is impressive.  I check it about every month or two and it has never dropped more than 0.1 volt of charge.  When I first received it, I charged it completely and then hooked it up via battery jumper cables to the 12,000 pound winch on my truck. It had no problem running the winch under load for a short test.  I also bought the Optimate charger for it as the charging for this type battery is very different from the smart trickle chargers by Deltran.  It's my understanding that you must charge these with a lithium type charger or risk damaging the battery or possibly starting it on fire.  I didn't notice the composition in the eBay ad but my particular battery was purchased from Antigravity and is a LiFePO (Lithium Iron Phosphate).  Below are a couple of pics with the battery sitting in the battery tray for a 350.


Offline Old BS Guy

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2019, 08:12:07 PM »
Excellent! That's some of the feedback I'm looking for. I think I'm going for the 8 cell since it will fit and is closer on the amp hr. rating. I'm out working on my other 350 GTR to just fire it up. There's a gentleman in Hong Kong who apparently wants to buy it. Thank so much for the info. I'll pass it on to him, or send one along with the bike. I'm ordering one tonight for my keeper.
'65 BS Homer 50, '69 Mach II RS 200, '67 350 GTR,(2), '66 Sport 90 o.i., '65 90M Surf Rider, '68 100 Trail, '71 100 TMX ,'79 Honda CBX, '82 Yam 650 Turbo, '74 RD-350, '70 Triumph 500 Trophy, '65 Honda CL72 250 Scrambler, 67 Honda CL77 305 Scrambler.

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 07:40:09 AM »
          Great information from all, but would echo CL-100s comments about charging.
    UNLESS THE MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS SAY YOU CAN, DO NOT USE STANDARD CHARGERS ON LITHIUM  ION BATTERIES, THEY CAN AND DO GO ON FIRE.      ( Boeing cockpit fires))
      They operate on a much narrower voltage range than lead acid type. If you buy one that is not specifically made for auto use, you risk serious damage to the battery, your bike, yourself or property. Once on fire, they cannot be extinguished due to oxygen in the chemicals used. I've witnessed this on several occasions !!

      CL, your battery looks lost in there   ;D ;D , the carrier certainly would accept a higher rated battery which would be a bonus with our marginal charging system. 
      OBSG, Be very intersted to hear your test findings.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 07:48:52 AM by BRT-GTR »
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I'm so glad I grew up in the 60s & 70s. I did so much stupid stuff and there's no record of it.............Anywhere !!

Offline Old BS Guy

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 10:43:37 AM »
Brian; The dimension width for that particular 4 cell is 1.25". They make an 8 cell, which is what I was referring to in my earlier comment, OR, a person could install a second 4 cell in parallel to help his reserve capacity. Point well taken on the charging rate, but the most important stat seems to be nothing over 14.5 volts, and keeping discharge above 8 volts. Amperage wise, I'd still recommend replacing regulators with something solid state. It's so easy to do, originality aside. My Honda CL72 250 gets along fine with it.
'65 BS Homer 50, '69 Mach II RS 200, '67 350 GTR,(2), '66 Sport 90 o.i., '65 90M Surf Rider, '68 100 Trail, '71 100 TMX ,'79 Honda CBX, '82 Yam 650 Turbo, '74 RD-350, '70 Triumph 500 Trophy, '65 Honda CL72 250 Scrambler, 67 Honda CL77 305 Scrambler.

Offline OldSwartout

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2019, 02:46:09 PM »
Hopefully, the Lithium batteries turn out well, I'd like to use one in my GTR.  I did change to an electronic regulator/rectifier which I agree would be necessary for a Lithium battery.  I initially used an early Kawasaki unit as shown in the How To section in this forum, but wasn't completely happy with the way it regulated. I changed to a Regulator/Rectifier for a Suzuki GN250 available from various sources for $20- $40. It has five wires (three the same color for the rectifier + positive +ground). There seems to be different connector configurations for early and late models, but all 5 wire.  It seems to work better.
Karl Swartout
Mooresville, IN
BS175 Roadracer
BS350 GTR

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2019, 02:55:02 PM »
     Cheers OBSG,
    I was confused by the 8 cell, must have 2 x 4cell in parallel otherwise it would be 24v.  Agreed the 9 amphr capacity would be a good upgrade.
     I've only dealt with 2 and 3 cell packs in the past for electric flight and note your 14.5v high and 8volt low values. Did you install a separate regulator or a combined rectifier/reg unit.
     Just bought an AGM Motobatt 7 A/H for the bike but will go for a Li-ion next time.

      Karl, thats a nice compact unit, will check out the UK prices Lol.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 02:58:23 PM by BRT-GTR »
Unspoiled by progress.
I'm so glad I grew up in the 60s & 70s. I did so much stupid stuff and there's no record of it.............Anywhere !!

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2019, 04:27:27 PM »
    Did find this warning notice on one UK site selling the Suzuki regulator.

     https://www.dropbox.com/s/f5ekhntoafnc693/Battery%20Types.pdf?dl=0
Unspoiled by progress.
I'm so glad I grew up in the 60s & 70s. I did so much stupid stuff and there's no record of it.............Anywhere !!

Offline OldSwartout

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2019, 04:57:06 PM »
It sounds as if one of these is needed:
https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/blog/lithium-ion-friendly-rectifierregulator/
It's going to cost a little more.
Karl Swartout
Mooresville, IN
BS175 Roadracer
BS350 GTR

Offline CL-100

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2019, 05:04:54 PM »
Brian,

Yes, that 4 cell battery has plenty of room in the standard battery holder.  I was thinking about carving out some foam rubber to fit the battery and that space, but don't want to insulate the battery and stop it from dissipating heat.  Maybe I should just go with the 8-cell.  I originally bought this battery for my current project but started using it in all my other bikes.  I got tired of trying to maintain batteries for 11 bikes and thought I would just use this one for the 12V bikes.  I can only ride one bike at a time, so why fuss with all those other batteries.  I bought a generic sealed 6V battery for the other bikes.  They're very inexpensive and last a few years.  I keep both batteries on my workbench where it's easier to check voltage and keep them charged. 

Offline OldSwartout

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2019, 05:17:44 PM »
I was thinking about carving out some foam rubber to fit the battery and that space, but don't want to insulate the battery and stop it from dissipating heat.

I got tired of the rubber straps for the standard battery deteriorating every few years so I use a velcro strap to hold it in. I think that might be the solution for holding the smaller battery in place without insulating it with foam, having to fabricate a special bracket or the expense of the 8 cell.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 08:19:52 AM by OldSwartout »
Karl Swartout
Mooresville, IN
BS175 Roadracer
BS350 GTR

Offline Old BS Guy

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2019, 12:04:07 AM »
Thanks everyone. I find the 5 wire regulator info very interesting. I'll let you know how the tests turn out. Have just spent the last 2 days resurrecting my old 350GTR, (not the daily driver), that's been collecting dust for 3-4 years after I brought it home from a trip to Iowa where I rescued it from sure death. Someone with lesser skills had obviously tried to start it by butchering some wiring. I'm happy to report it lives again. Just can't believe how good it sounds after sitting and rotting all those years. One of these LI batts is going in this bike now that I have the electrical straightened out. Thanks again for all the good input. BTW... I did my part and steered another new FB group member to our home page link today. Recruit, recruit, recruit.......
Cheers...
'65 BS Homer 50, '69 Mach II RS 200, '67 350 GTR,(2), '66 Sport 90 o.i., '65 90M Surf Rider, '68 100 Trail, '71 100 TMX ,'79 Honda CBX, '82 Yam 650 Turbo, '74 RD-350, '70 Triumph 500 Trophy, '65 Honda CL72 250 Scrambler, 67 Honda CL77 305 Scrambler.

Offline Old BS Guy

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Re: Lithium Battery
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2019, 02:20:18 AM »
Just installed a new LI battery in the daily driver 350 GTR. Perfect case fit. I used some foam pad on the bottom instead of the rubber mat. I also used 2 small pieces on the inside facing end to keep it away from the bracket. This is the only single battery I've found so far that has very close case dimensions, other than the one shown above. This is a Shorai - LFX07L2-BS12. It's a 7 Ah rating. The only shortcoming is literally that it's shorter than a conventional, so it comes in under the grip area of the standard rubber retainer. I fashioned one from bulk velcro, and it works nicely. You can buy these batteries off EBay for around $80. I actually got this one in a bid style auction for under $70 shipped.
'65 BS Homer 50, '69 Mach II RS 200, '67 350 GTR,(2), '66 Sport 90 o.i., '65 90M Surf Rider, '68 100 Trail, '71 100 TMX ,'79 Honda CBX, '82 Yam 650 Turbo, '74 RD-350, '70 Triumph 500 Trophy, '65 Honda CL72 250 Scrambler, 67 Honda CL77 305 Scrambler.

 


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