Author Topic: A question for the 175 experts  (Read 402 times)

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Offline CL-100

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A question for the 175 experts
« on: April 14, 2019, 10:12:32 AM »
I've recently purchased a 175 lower end to have as a bench top project while I wait for parts or services on my main project.  The engine came without any history on the rest of the bike it came from, but it was so clean I thought I'd take a chance on it.  The clutch cover has the engine ID as TA1 05911.  It was represented to me as a 1966 model, but again no frame number to corroborate.  I haven't done anything with it yet except look through the parts and service manuals, which raised a few questions for me. 

From what I can tell in searching this site, it is an earlier model, but I'm guessing "not" a 16A model.  In looking through the parts manual there are several references for parts "before/after 16B, 16G, etc.  Would anyone out there have an engine ID close to the one I have and know whether their bike is a 16B, 16C, or ?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Rowland

Offline CL-100

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2019, 10:42:41 AM »
After my previous posting I found a notation in the Clymer service manual referencing:

...a modified fifth speed shift fork for 175 models after 16B04739.

With that, I'm speculating that I have a B or C model engine lower unit.

Offline bsracer

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2019, 04:25:57 AM »
Can you post a couple of pictures? There are differences that might be referenced to vin changes like timing gears for instance.


paul

Offline OldSwartout

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2019, 08:16:41 AM »
The 16A - 16Z serial number prefixes indicate the year and month of build. Go to the following topic:  https://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=449.20 , scroll down to the list of 175 build numbers and compare the 5 digits of your TA1 engine number to the list. You'll  be able to tell which year & month (16A - 16Z) your engine was built.  This isn't 100% foolproof, the numbers in the post are those that have been verified and aren't a complete list.  As bsracer says, the proof is in the parts you find when you disassemble it.

That's assuming the clutch cover is original.  Most are.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 08:37:48 AM by OldSwartout »
Karl Swartout
Mooresville, IN
BS175 Roadracer. BS200RS, BS175HS
BS350 GTR

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2019, 09:08:32 AM »
      I was looking for Graham Weeks list when Karl posted link above. Graham listed the lowest and highest VIN known for each month of production.
       Based on the engine number being within a few hundred of the machine VIN, it could still be a B or C machine (Feb or March 66), so unless one of our members can post closer numbers I think this is as best as you can get to an actual production date..
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 09:14:23 AM by BRT-GTR »
Unspoiled by progress.
I'm so glad I grew up in the 60s & 70s. I did so much stupid stuff and there's no record of it.............Anywhere !!

Offline CL-100

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2019, 04:45:31 PM »
Thanks for the responses!  Graham's running list of known serial numbers is a real treasure.  I still miss his posts.  The list seems to confirm my guess that the engine is a late 16B or early 16C.  For purposes of future parts purchasing, I think I may be OK as I haven't come across any parts difference for B and C models.   The only parts book reference that is close so far is the center crank bearing and seal, which was different for models before 16B.

I've gone ahead and posted a picture of the dynamo timing gear.  Clearly a "before 16G" version.  I've also noted that the oil pump has the "brass check valve connectors" that were fitted beginning in Feb. '66 according to the Clymer manual.

Thanks for all the help.  I'm sure I'll have more questions as I tear into it. 

« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 12:04:24 PM by CL-100 »

Offline CL-100

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 02:31:22 PM »
Well, I've completed disassembly of the 175 engine and it has provided me with more questions than answers.  What I've read so far from other posts is that there are at least three types of center crank bearing/seal assemblies for engines after 16A.  My engine # is 05911, which I believe makes it a late 16B or early 16C.  There is one with an oil seal retainer ring that fits in the upper case half, one with a locating dowel pin for the center bearing that fits in the lower? case half, and one without the dowel pin. My cases seem to have neither of these configurations.  When I took the cases apart, the center seal spring was broken on the side of the center seal next to the roller bearing.  I've been using a parts manual with a Sept. '66 date on it for reference and have tried to identify parts from that.  All three bearing are tight and spin well.  The center roller bearing has a shallow depression for what I assume is a locating pin.  There are also two other small holes that go completely through the bearing race to the rollers.  I assume these are passages for the oil/fuel to get lubricant to the rollers from the transfer port in the right cylinder.  The other two bearings are standard fare.  I see no evidence of there having been a 20mm o-ring (part # x2) and I have no idea what part # x1 is.  It looks as though the crankshaft is stepped between the area of the center seal and the roller bearing.  When I lifted the crankshaft out of the lower case, there was a moderate amount of very fine rubber grit under the center seal/bearing.  On close inspection, there are small fragments of the rubber seal missing on the bearing side where the spring broke.  I have a new set of all three bearings, which look like the ones on the crankshaft.  I also have a new 28 x 55 x 8 center oil seal for engines after 16B.  The width of this seal has me concerned because it seems that there is a lot of room between the left crank inner web and the roller bearing. 


So obviously i'm going to have to send the crank out to replace the center seal.  I may as well have the bearings changed out too. My concerns are:

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether my crankshaft might be from a 16A engine and would therefore need a different center seal? The parts manual identifies two center oil seals.  One is before 16B and one is after 16B.  Perhaps it gets lost in the translation but I'm assuming the second seal is for everything after 16A.

Should I look for someone to drill my case for a locating pin to affix the roller bearing or can I go with something like Loctite for bearings?

What is part number X1 (crank shaft spacer)?

Which crankshaft configuration uses the 20mm o-ring?


Are there any recommendations for who/where I might be able to get this work done?

I'm attaching 3 pictures for your review...uppercase crankcase, crankshaft, and lower crankcase. 


Any help is greatly appreciated!  Thanks.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:22:11 PM by CL-100 »

Offline dcr

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 10:00:14 AM »
Paul (BS Racer) posted this on an earlier discussion which can be found here: https://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=3582.msg23155#msg23155

There are more than just a couple types of center bearings and seals. I have three or four different types of center bearings. The two you listed as well as one with two center grooves and I swear I took apart a motor with a ball bearing center bearing. There are even differences in similar style bearings. I think I have three different styles of the pinned type. One with a bronze cage with loose rollers (there are rod bearings just like these!) and two with different diameter center cases with different size rollers. The seals main difference is the early type are 20mm ID. The later are 28mm that use a sleeve on the crank to step up the size. Even these sleeves vary with some being solid and some have an oring.

I've had a good machinist add a locating pin to a set of cases. Adding a groove to a bearing can be done but may require precision grinding. If I remember there may not be a groove in the early cases for the locating clip the keeps the seal in place. The early 20mm seals are wider and don't require the clip. If I had some more time I'd document most of this. I'll try and snap pics in the future and post them when I can.

paul
1966 175 DT and 1968 350 GTR

Offline bsracer

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2020, 12:21:40 PM »
Part x1 and x2 are required for the later crank seals that are 28mm (neither are available that I know of). The cases will have a clip in one half and a locating pin/dowel in the other half. My understanding is that the early cases you have would have a 20mm seal that does not require a locating clip or dowel because the bearing should have a center trough to provide oil to the two opposing holes in the bearing case. Does the crank have a recess for a dowel in the bearing case? Are the rollers on the big end bearing spaced evenly? or are they paired with two next to each other? I can't tell but it looks like they are the paired type, which may be an inbetween configuration (new style bearing with 20mm seal). You will have to make sure the bearing case is lined up with the hole in the transfer so the bearing will be properly lubed. Utah Crankshaft has built a few cranks for 175's (none of mine). (801) 702-8142. I've attached a pic of some of the cranks I have. If you zoom in you can see one with a double groove (toward top of pic) in the case and there is one with single groove. The others show the recess for the dowel.

paul

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2020, 05:34:41 PM »
bsracer,

My cases don't have the recess cutout for a retainer clip or a hole for a dowel.  The center roller bearing doesn't have the centerline groove for oiling or the groove for a retainer clip (I've attached a better picture to this post), but it does have the recess for the dowel.  I was thinking about going ahead and trying to cut out the damaged seal for better access, but I'm waiting.  I was able to get my calipers between the left inner crankshaft web and the seal and it measures out to 28mm.  I'm still working on a makeshift tool to get the measurement on the center bearing side.  The rollers on my big end bearing are not spaced evenly, they are in pairs.  It also looks like the cage for the roller bearings is copper colored. 

I may have the wrong replacement center bearing.  The O.D. and the width are the same as the current bearing, but the I.D. is 20mm.  I have no idea if the crank on that side of the seal is also going to be 28mm. 

I thought I read somewhere that some crankshaft versions had a spacer in the center bearing/seal area to facilitate the larger I.D. of the seal or bearing.  I seem to recall that they were being chipped when trying to remove them.  Since part # x-2 is a "20 O-ring", would the older crankshaft versions have been smaller?  Would the 20 O-ring need to be adjacent to the spacer?  I do have a 28 center seal and 20 O-ring, but would really like to know what the width of the O-ring is supposed to be.

Thanks for taking the time to help figuring this out.  If I ever feel like I totally understand all the versions I'll post a summary.



« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 05:59:11 PM by CL-100 »

Offline OldSwartout

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2020, 06:58:55 PM »
Paul (bsracer) can confirm this, but I believe all versions used a bearing with a 20mm ID, just different roller and OD configurations. The 28mm versions used a sleeve over the 20mm crankpin to make a spacer to keep the bearing in place axially on the shaft and keep the crank cheek spacing correct when assembling. It created a 28mm ID only for the seal.

Analyzing the changes would indicate that the first engines had seals and bearings that would move axially and rotate in the crankcase (hence the groove around the OD of the bearing to transfer oil/gas mix), then a half ring was added to keep the seal in place and a sleeve added to locate the bearing, then the locating pin was added to the crankcase to keep the bearing in place axially in the case and prevent bearing race rotation to keep the oil holes aligned and prevent crankcase bore wear.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 07:10:32 PM by OldSwartout »
Karl Swartout
Mooresville, IN
BS175 Roadracer. BS200RS, BS175HS
BS350 GTR

Offline rwgibbon

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2020, 07:27:07 AM »
Thank you Karl.

I always enjoy and learn from your posts.

Randy

Offline CL-100

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2020, 03:06:28 PM »
Karl, Paul, and Dan

Thanks for your responses.  I originally bought this engine to have a bench top project and learn some more about Bridgestones.  I think I now have enough information to proceed.  The combinations of differing seals, bearings, and methods of stabilizing these items can be confounding.  The parts manual now makes more sense to me though.  I'll be going to the machine shop soon. 

Rowland

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2020, 09:50:57 AM »
I should have also mentioned that I have also seen the center sleeve/spacer with and without the 20mm oring. The one without an oring may be a later version as it is very similar to the seal sleeve for the right hand crank bearing, it's just wider. As Karl said all the crank center shafts are 20mm. The spacer creates the OD for the 28mm seal and spaces the bearing properly. I have a handful of both type spacers that were damaged when I disassembled several cranks. Be careful when they are being taken apart. If you want to give me a ring anytime 619.675.4060, I'd be happy to answer anymore questions.

paul

Offline slawsonb

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2020, 01:42:58 PM »
Just want to say that this is a very interesting thread. To second what Randy said above, always learn something from this site and its members. I am also glad to see that Graham Weeks contributions live on. Very cool!...bert
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 06:30:42 PM by slawsonb »

Offline CL-100

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Re: A question for the 175 experts
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2020, 06:12:34 AM »
I should have also mentioned that I have also seen the center sleeve/spacer with and without the 20mm oring. The one without an oring may be a later version as it is very similar to the seal sleeve for the right hand crank bearing, it's just wider. As Karl said all the crank center shafts are 20mm. The spacer creates the OD for the 28mm seal and spaces the bearing properly. I have a handful of both type spacers that were damaged when I disassembled several cranks. Be careful when they are being taken apart. If you want to give me a ring anytime 619.675.4060, I'd be happy to answer anymore questions.

paul

Thanks Paul.  I'll be keeping this thread handy and will post updates with pictures of my crank as I proceed.  I really appreciate having a phone number and the opportunity to speak to you directly. 

 


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