Bridgestone Motorcycle Parts Discussion Board
Bridgestone Tech Talk => 350 Talk => Topic started by: Toystoretom on June 13, 2010, 12:10:59 PM
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As you might have guessed my 350 GTR is locked up. I pulled the head off and it really doesn't look that bad in there, in fact the right cylinder's chrome is nice. The left cylinder's chrome has two small rust through spots so it's done, but it doesn't look that bad either (rust wise that is). I sprayed some rust penetrant in there but no joy for me, it's still stuck. Also (this may be related) I can't pull in the clutch lever, but the cable is not frozen. Also I can shift down into first and back into neutral but that's it. It won't shift up into any of the higher gears. Now I'm beginning to wonder if the tranny is locked up and maybe not the cylinders.
If I put the bike up on the center stand and shift down into first I can rock the rear wheel back and forth but this does nothing (as far as moving the pistons).
How do you guys unstick these things? I hate to just start whacking on it with a drift and a hammer. I was thinking of fabing up a steel plate with 4 holes for the cylinder studs and then drill a hole in the center of the plate and run a threaded rod through that. I could put a steel puck on top of the piston to protect it and then turn down the threaded rod to act almost like a shop press to break the piston loose.
Let me run this by you guys... If the tranny wasn't locked up but the pistons were seized, (with the heads off), wouldn't the cylinders lift off of crankcase when I rocked the rear wheel back and forth? Mine just sit there. ???
Tomo
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As you might have guessed my 350 GTR is locked up. I pulled the head off and it really doesn't look that bad in there, in fact the right cylinder's chrome is nice. The left cylinder's chrome has two small rust through spots so it's done, but it doesn't look that bad either (rust wise that is). I sprayed some rust penetrant in there but no joy for me, it's still stuck. Also (this may be related) I can't pull in the clutch lever, but the cable is not frozen. Also I can shift down into first and back into neutral but that's it. It won't shift up into any of the higher gears. Now I'm beginning to wonder if the tranny is locked up and maybe not the cylinders.
If I put the bike up on the center stand and shift down into first I can rock the rear wheel back and forth but this does nothing (as far as moving the pistons).
How do you guys unstick these things? I hate to just start whacking on it with a drift and a hammer. I was thinking of fabing up a steel plate with 4 holes for the cylinder studs and then drill a hole in the center of the plate and run a threaded rod through that. I could put a steel puck on top of the piston to protect it and then turn down the threaded rod to act almost like a shop press to break the piston loose.
Let me run this by you guys... If the tranny wasn't locked up but the pistons were seized, (with the heads off), wouldn't the cylinders lift off of crankcase when I rocked the rear wheel back and forth? Mine just sit there. ???
Tomo
You won't be able to break it loose rocking the wheel with the tranny in 1st; you don't have enough leverage - just like trying to push start one in 1st.
You might go ahead and try a hammer and wood block on top of the piston. If it is just lightly stuck, this may work. If one piston is at or near TDC and the other at BDC, don't bother, you can't rotate the crank if you are pushing straight down on a rod. Skip straight to the last suggestion for removing the cylinders.
You can try the plate bolted to the studs and threaded rod, that's a pretty common way to do it. You may damage something else, but that's a good way to start. Of course, heat (a lot, using some kind of torch) will help if you don't get results cold, but use caution so you don't set anything on fire. The cylinders will be stuck tightly at the base with the gasket unless you bump them loose with a rubber hammer or wood block. Use caution here too, or you will have broken fins.
You can get even more drastic by pulling the cylinder studs (double nut them), tapping the cylinder holes and fastening your plate to the cylinder instead of the studs, so that you lift the cylinder off the piston instead of pushing the piston down. Break the base gasket loose first.
You may have a locked trans or a rusty crankshaft or myriad other potential problems, but the best way to start is to get the pistons loose and cylinders off first like you are trying to do.
Karl
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You have some good ideas. It sounds like you have done this before ;D
Both pistons are about halfway down in the bores, so I'm lucky there. Also, I found out that I didn't know the shift pattern was 6 down, so it turns out that the bike will shift down through the gears.
I'm going to let it soak for awhile, and I was thinking about using some heat.
The cylinders must really get stuck to the crankcase, mine don't even wiggle.
It took 23 years for them to get stuck, hopefully it won't take that long for me to get them loose :D
Thanks!
Tomo
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The cylinders must really get stuck to the crankcase, mine don't even wiggle.
Tap on them sideways & front to rear with a fairly heavy rubber/plastic hammer.
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Toystoretom
I used seafoam remove the spark plugs and pour 50% of seafoam in each cylinder.
Then leave it for 24 hours try moving the crankshaft i did a Yamaha thay way
three weeks ago and its works!
Thanks.
Reed.
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I'll have to try some of that if I can find some locally (the Seafoam, that is). A problem I am having is that the right piston is down just far enough that it has started to uncover a port, and anything I pour in there just goes "down the drain" so to speak.
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OK.... kind of an update:
I got the cylinders off of the crankcase. The right cylinder broke loose with some rust penetrant and a little tapping. The piston looks like *&$!! and the rings are stuck but that's OK. The cylinder bore has a few little nicks but I think it might clean up OK and be useable with a new piston and rings.
The left side is another story. It's probably why the bike was put up so many years ago. The piston had seized in the bore and was burnt and melted a tad. That baby was stuck. I made up a plate as I described above and was eventually able to break it loose using that. Even then, I only was able to move it down just a little past the ports. Since I had the other side free I turned the motor over and lifted the left cylinder off of the crankcase and put some wood "shims" under it and cranked down on the piston a little more until I ran out of threaded rod (that holds the cylinder and secures the head). I didn't have far to go so I used a brass drift and was able to knock it out. The bore is cooked. There are big holes in the chrome. The skirts (I guess you would call them that?) have cracks in them. It's done.
Anyone have a left cylinder they would like to sell? Even if it had bad chrome I would consider it, I could have it nickasil lined along with the right cylinder I have. Let me know if you have anything...
From what I understand NOS ones are impossible to find??? Or does someone have some?
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Just some thoughts.....
After I got my pistons out I kind of studied what I had. One thing I noticed was that the rings were completely stuck in their grooves. Possibly the combination of aluminum pistons and cast iron rings caused a chemical reaction between the two dis-similar metals. The rings had corrosion underneath them that pushed them out from the piston and I think that this is actually what sticks the piston assembly in the bore. This corrosion doesn't seem to attack the chrome bore itself. As time goes on the rings push harder and harder against the bore and things really get stuck.
Spraying some sort of penetrating fluid on top of the piston is certainly not going to hurt, but after looking at my pistons I don't think it helped a whole lot either. I don't think any of it got past the first ring even after several applications a day for two weeks or so. The engineers at Bridgestone went to a lot of trouble to make sure the cylinders and rings sealed well to hold compression, which basically means that hot gasses under extreme pressure couldn't get past the rings. A liquid has little chance of getting past those rings.
What might be a better idea would be to remove the engine from the bike and stand the engine up so the open exhaust ports are straight up. The engine would almost have to be over on its back to do this considering the angle of the exhaust ports where the pipes leave the heads. With the ports "up" like this you could pour the penetrating fluid into the exhaust ports and it could soak in UNDER the piston rings and lube up a much greater area of the piston body. Then when you go to press the pistons loose things may go easier.
Maybe there could be some kind of chemical or process that would dissolve the corrosion around the rings without hurting the chrome bore??? I'll have to work on that :o
Don't hammer on it. Don't pry on the cylinders in any way. Build a press that bolts onto the cylinder studs and keep away from the chrome bores. Heat may help. I tried heat from a propane torch and while I got the cylinder waaay too hot to touch I think it may take more than that. Possibly a MAP torch or Oxy- Acetelyne. If you use heat take off the gas tank and roll the bike outside your house or garage. This is how people burn their houses down. Do have a fire extinguisher handy.
If anybody has any ideas or know of any good stuff like Seafoam please chime in. Stuck pistons probably plagues many new Bridgestone owners...
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After 15 years of storing the GTR I rolled her out and cleaned off the dust for a photo shoot, then got busy looking into why the kick gear broke ( the gear on the right end of the kick starter shaft ), when I tried to turn the engine over with the driven gear off it would not budge :'(, so I removed both cylinder heads off and it looks like the left side may be stuck , all though the cylinders both look real good . the right side the piston is just low enough to expose the the port, the left side above enough to cover up the port , so I will try some sea foam this week and even block the right port to keep enough of the sea foam from going down the drain. I hope the low miles and indoor storage of the bike is on my side , so lets all join hands a say a little prayer to the BridgeStone Gods tonight ;D. I read all the posts on " stuck 350 cylinders " and came away with great insight on how to approach this next step , and am real thankful that I got the original 350 GTR SERVICE MANUAL when I took possession of the bike 15 years ago. The book is in its clear hard plastic sleeve and is in perfect condition, will post a pic soon of it . well any words of advice will help and thanks again for hosting such a great forum Richard ...........Randy ;)
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Randy,this bike looks to be in awfully nice condition. I hope the electrolysis hasn't
been too extensive. Sea foam is probably as good a starting point as any. I like PB Blaster too. biggest thing is to TAKE YOUR TIME and not force anything. Let the penetrants do thier work. Heating the cylinder with a good heat gun set on high can help. Keep the heat away from paint and rubber and flamables. As you dissassemble for the starter fix,check that the bike is not bottom locked. Even with a stuck piston,you should be able to realize some slight movement of the crank. If not,you will likely be taking it all the way down. Good luck,keep us posted. Thanks,Mark.
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Mark : thanks for the reply and info. Today I picked up some Sea Foam and added some to each cylinder, the one cylinder with the port exposed I used some cardboard to block the port to give me time to spread the foam around the pistons edge. I will keep adding and agitating the foam in for at least a week, unless you think I should go longer ???. I would like to know more about the use of a HEAT gun. Do I blast the outside of the cylinders, or blast the piston/inside cylinder or both? By the way, all though I have been a mechanic for 30 years, I have never worked on motorcycles. So I will be asking lots of questions :-[.
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I am not Mark, but I would try to heat the cylinder. This way it will increase in size and even if it is only .005 it may be enough to break it loose from the piston.
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Thank you Dave, Any helpful tips will be appreciated I really want to give this beautifully bike the best chance to get through the fix. Wow ! what a joy it would be to hear her run :D
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Colostone
If you use heat on the outside of the cylinder you need to put ice on the top of the piston so that cylinder increase in size with the heat
The piston contact by using the ice you if you keep the heat on the piston the the piston will heat up and expands too.
Very gently tap the cylinder with a rubber hammer then has the ice melts on top add more and pull up in small stages just take your
time.
Thanks.
Reed.
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That sounds like a great idea Reed , just thought I would ask . Do you think there may be a chance to get the pistons moving by gentle tapping on them at that stage , or no mater what I need to remove the cylinders , I do not think the pistons are that crusted but then again I do not have x ray eyes Thanks again Reed
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Colostone
No i would just tap the cylinder or or turnover by the crankshaft etc.
If you get the cylinder to move up a little bit leave it for another night .
Don't rush it.
Thanks.
PS ONE CYLINDER TOOK ME A WEEK ONE TIME BUT I GOT IT OFF
WITH OUT ANY DAMAGE.
Reed.
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I see . I will take my time and hopefully be one of the lucky ones to save the cylinders thanks again Reed
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Randy,when it comes time that things will move for you,you will want to pull the cylinders off the pistons vs.pushing the piston(s)downward if possible. Remember one is going down while the other is coming up. This is also why I suggest checking to be sure the crank is not locked. In the end,if a piston needs "help"in moving downward you cannot tap it down if the crank is locked without the fear of causing damage to the rod,etc. Also remember as you get them moving that the cylinders are likely stuck fairly well at the base gaskets and it takes a little jolt to break the seal sometimes before the cylinders will move up. I also suggest the heat gun vs.a torch due to the damage that can be done with an open flame or overheating the aluminum cylinder. Check your personal mail. Thanks,Mark.
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Well after letting the cylinders marinate for a week I finally rolled her out for a first attempt on moving things , I feel pretty good because after removing the exhaust and heating up one cylinder it came loose at the base with a light taping from the rubber mallet. The other cylinder cooperated in the same fashion and it looked as though the crank was ok because the opposite cylinder bumped up its gap when freeing the left sides base, the left side looked to be the least crudded up so I sprayed more PB Blaster (thanks Mark ) in the exhaust port, then tapped lightly down on that sides piston and was surprised to see the right cylinder raising up as the crank rotated, Whew ! that felt great to see that. I began spaying and heating the right side, carefully tapping the piston until about an half inch gap formed in which time I decided to through caution to the wind and stop there, I gave everything a good soaking and retired the bike to another week of PB Blaster. I really do appreciate the guidance Mark , Steve, and Dave and the bore on the right looks just fine as i see more of it now. i will keep you all posted on the progress
Thanks Randy
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Colostone
I am glad that the cylinder is moving for you hope that it works out if you need help with the crankshaft i have a crankstand
and a 60 ton press etc.I did a Kawasaki z1300 with the cylinder stuck it took some time!
Good luck.
Reed.
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Great ! I will let you know, will or should I go further into the engine if the crank turns out looking clean ? should I go to getting the bike running or not waste time and do a full restor on the engine its only at 4500 miles ?
Thanks Randy
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Colostone
If it turns over and looks clean inside with that low miles you will be all right!
Thanks.
Reed.
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It be stuck no-mo :o ! I was able to coach the right cylinder off today using the methods and advice of you good people , I needed to come up with a method of sucking up the space in the cylinder as the piston moved downward so the crank would not run out of travel. Needing something that can change with the gap I came up with using Popsicle Sticks my wife uses to label plants in the garden,( yes she was pissed )but it worked real well adding more sticks as the piston moved down. The cylinder looks just great with no pits scars , or any damage at all . Now should I mike the cylinder ? get new rings ? and I need some advice on the left cylinder, I gave it a whirl but it does not seem to want to budge at all >:( Here is some pics and I will add the rest in my gallery.
Thanks again for all the help
Randy
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Colostone
Good job! getting that cylinder off on the right side so i would take off the piston etc.
And i would check the cylinder and if its OK put new piston and rings on.
You can get the pistons and rings from Richard at a good price.
On the left side you have to work at it to get that cylinder off!
Usually wants the crankshaft moves and you have one cylinder off it wont be long
Before the other side will move and will be able to remove cylinder.
Thanks
Reed.
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Thanks Reed , it sure felt good to get through one half of the stuck glitch, but it worry`s me about the left one :'(, I took a sponge and cut two rounds to fit up the exhaust port saturated in PB Blaster to hopefully loosen up that side of the piston. Do you have any other tricks up your sleeves that I may use besides the hitting down on the piston ? I am making sure the crank has plenty of travel so as not to put any impact on the crank assembly! Well let me know :)
Thanks
Randy
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Randy
Try CRC FREEZE-OFF SUPER PENETRANT i like the stuff it works for me!
Thanks.
Reed.
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Thanks I will try to find some , maybe dry ice on the piston, and heat on the cylinder too ???
Thanks
Randy
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Ok I just looked up the stuff "? CRC FREEZE-OFF SUPER PENETRANT, thats great
Thanks
Randy
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Randy
Its hard to tell you what to do were not there it all works!
Like i said before just take your time.
Thanks.
Reed.
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It Be Stuck No Mo II , well after a few weeks of delay I finally had a chance today to give it another try using CRC FREEZE-OFF SUPER PENETRANT ,Thanks Steve" and some sharp hits the piston began to move :o
The cylinder looks great and with new pistons things should work fine. The crank looks fantastic as well as the wrist pins and needle bearings and moves real smooth, I notice there is two notches on the crank for pinning the motor ??? well when I get further down that road I will read more about setting the mechanical timing and most likely will need the timing bar and pin. Thanks to everyone that gave me the advice to get this far and will sure to call upon you again as I move forward.
Thanks
Randy
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Here is a couple of pics of the cylinder task, plus while cleaning the right crank case cover I noticed a broken section/membrane where the oil fills in, this probably happened when the original owner shattered the kick start gear C, could anyone tell me if this is game over for the cover ? If so maybe Richard will have another ???
Thanks
Randy
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Randy
On the cover at this stage of the game i would check to see if Richard had one!
Or a good used one.
Thanks.
Steve.
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Well I revived good tidings in the post on Monday, A UPS of new /and some NOS parts from Richard, The head and cylinder gaskets some case and carb cover gaskets, a ignition key , and the cremda la`crem a Kick Start Gear boy what a sight for sore eye`s for that part , Rich said it was his last one so now what does someone do when parts like that become unavailable ? I am sure glad my wife was home when the post got to the house because one of the neighbor hood bears has been seen taking UPS from some porches , and taking them down to the creek for further examination, or shall I say
to SHRED the boxes open . to lose the gaskets to the bears teeth would be not to bad ,but if the Kick Start Gear ended up in the belly of the beast I would track him down and and cut him open alive with my skinning knife. Well I have plenty more to do before trying to start the GTR up for the first time and will keep posting on the progress
Thanks
Randy
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You also got real lucky getting the case as I tryed to get one several months back with no luck, I ended up doing alot of welding and grinding to repair mine. Good luck with your build looks like your on the right track.
Mike
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Randy
Looks like it wont be long before the GTR will be running!
Please send pictures of the bears it make a change to motorcycles.
Thanks.
PS we do not have bears in Wales.
Steve.
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I will post some Pics of bears around the neighbor hood when I get a chance to scan them in , Ridered maybe the way it was worded through you off ,I recieved case Gaskets , not the case its self though that would have been a great thing if it were posible, I think I may be able to repair the broken area, could you or Steve check out the pic of the damage ? it is in a troth that looks like the oil is directed to the transmission side first , do you guys think this damage is that big of a deal ? would not the oil make its way throughout the system anyway ? ??? I just don`t know any help would help
Thanks
Randy
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Randy
If you could take more pictures from the other side of the case so we can see more!
Thanks.
Steve.
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hi i have just stripped my spare bottom end for spares it had done a lot more damage than yours it had smashed both crankcases. but inside was all shiney so i decided to use my kickstart gear on that shaft, but when i swapped it over the ratchet was far weaker than my original shaft so i swapped it back, this shaft has a much more positive ratchet. cant see any differance maybe the tang bent slightly when it jammed. just thought id let you know
lance
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Looking at the pics of your right hand case cover, it seems that the damage is in the area of the "oil catcher". The BS350 maintains a higher oil level in the main gearbox compared to the primary drive. It does this by having an oil catcher plate to catch oil thrown up by the large primary drive gear and drain that oil back into the main gearbox chamber. Some of the gearbox oil then drains back into the primary drive through holes in the crankcase wall. So long as the repair ensures that the oil thrown up by the primary drive gears can't drain straight back into the primary drive chamber, you should be OK.
For the same reason you should make sure to use the long gearbox drain plug. If you use a short BS90/175 plug, the gearbox and primary drive chamber levels wil equalise via their drain passages and leave the gear cluster short on oil.
Hope that makes sense!
Graham
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Now that's an informative post. If it don't make sense to someone they can turn to page 19 figure 45 of the service manual and it will be clear as to what your saying. You cleared up 2 things that have struck me strange. When I saw FIG 45 I was wondering why the oil levels were not equalized and when I went to install the oil drain plug I was wondering why they made it so long. I personally pulled my motor apart 3 times to make sure I put it together correct as these motors really make you think when putting them together. The bikes were designed good but the service manual is pretty much useless. When you read for installation do the reverse of disassembly you know its going to be allot of thinking, I put mine together using the parts manual pictures as my engine was put together by someone who didn't have a clue it would of never ran the way it was put together.
Thanks for the info
Mike
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Hi Graham, Thanks a lot that is just the what I needed to hear/read I knew the "oil catcher " diverted oil back to the gear box but did not know to what extent this played a roll in the operation of the engine, I will re pare the area my self, and I do have the original gear box plug so I should be good there.
Thanks
Randy