Bridgestone Motorcycle Parts Discussion Board
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: coxy on December 31, 2016, 11:56:39 PM
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hey guys happy new year
I have just acquired two gto's they are both gold and I think 68 models and they need a little tlc which brings me to this ,is the left side cover supposed to be bent in ? one is bent in and one is bent out .
the other thing is under the gold paint it is blue on both of them ,maybe they came factory blue and painted by the dealer ?
cheers
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Yea... more GTO's! Good job coxy.
The first GTO's were part of the 1970 year models and had gold & chrome gas tanks w/gold side covers. The following year (1971) they changed the color to a solid white tank w/white side covers.
The left side battery cover was bent in on the left side as seen here in this ebay auction...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Bridgestone-Motorcycle-350-GTO-Side-Cover-/251600519506?hash=item3a948f4152:m:m-xgsRu5PEN_L2E6t-DjYfA&vxp=mtr
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Welcome to the GTO club, just joined it myself. ;D First impressions - they do look good with the upswept pipes but are a pain to work on. Those pipes have to come off to do any work on the engine, battery, electrics or cables >:( :'( .
I have been maintaining a list of post 1969 350s (GTOs & GTRs) that appear on the site, in an effort to pin down how many were made, along the lines of the lists kept by Graham Weeks but as well as the VIN number on the frame side tag I also include frame , engine numbers and body colour where available.
Can you let me have this info for your two machines.
My conclusions so far:- It is well documented, a 1000 gold/chrome GTOs built in late 1969( usually called 1970 models) and were possibly VIN numbered 6800 to 7799. The VINs I have back this up.
Now, it is always suggested a further batch of a 1000 350s were built for 1971 (500 white GTOs, 500 All gold GTRs). That would only take the VIN numbers to 8800 but we know VIN 9730 exists and I have seen a frame number as high as 9790 on an advert by Roadrash (a possible blue GTO). The numbers don't add up, yet. Did BS leave gaps in the VIN numbering system or were up to 2000 machines built for the final batch ? It's starting to look that way but I'm not sure, we need further evidence via the VINs.
It is also possible that a small number of alternative colour machines were produced towards the end of production, Blue being the most likely with maybe Moonpup's nemesis, the Sequoia Green GTR/GTO being another candidate. ;D :o
I will publish the list when I am more confident about the conclusions. My best guess at the moment is there were no more than 9800, 350 machines produced, at least 1500 being GTOs but maybe up to 2000.
Brian.
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It is also possible that a small number of alternative colour machines were produced towards the end of production, Blue being the most likely with maybe Moonpup's nemesis, the Sequoia Green GTR/GTO being another candidate. ;D :o
And yet the only one ACTUALLY listed in a factory dealer brochure and at the BEGINNING of the GTO production is...... 8)
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More color info....
The 1970 Model Line-up brochure is THE only reference to any other color besides gold for the 70 GTO.
HOWEVER.... it appears that while blue in not listed as an option in any sales/model brochures for either the GTR or the GTO (that I can find), both my 1970 & 1972 parts price lists shows the gas tank, oil tank & battery cover (5110-9000 / 5510-9000 / 6811-9001) available in blue for the GTR. That would definitely suggest that blue WAS an option for the GTR’s.
Bummer is that while green is on the 70 model year brochure, it ISN’T in either of my parts price list manuals..... (super bummer! :'( )
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thanks for the photo mike I will shoot you a email soon.
the numbers are serial #21w06800
frame#na1-06814
engine#03346
both these bikes have the vehicle id sticker, manufacture date 11/69 on the headstock
second bike
serial# 21w07257
frame#07275
I could not make out the engine number at this stage on this bike without taking the oil tank off .
it also seems there was a problem with the kick gear on these year models ,both have let loose putting a hole in the crank cases has anyone heard of this or am I just unlucky?
cheers
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The kickstarter gear breakage was a common problem. Read here: http://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=4373.msg25519#msg25519
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Coxy,
Many thanks for the GTO numbers.
I nearly fell off my chair when I read the VIN for the first bike, is it really 21W6800 !! That number machine is actually referred to on a factory Service bulletin, Feb 69, for the carb mod to the float pins. (Sorry, can't find link to a copy) The significance being, it was issued 6 months after production had stopped on the red GTRs in July 68 with a then total of 6782 built. Not knowing if the 350 production line would ever run again, they allocated VIN 6800 to the Bulletin with no month letter shown.
This suggests they planned to start any future production at number 6800 !!
Could yours have been the first GTO off the production line :o :o. Do you know any history for the two bikes, American imports? Wow, Would certainly give that GTO some provenance, she has had an engine change at some stage(approx Sept 67 engine).
Strange about the blue paint under the gold, does the paint look original, any overspray on the back of the panels/tank?
You have been unlucky with the kickgears, not an unknown issue, recent post by Steve in the UK :-.............Karl beat me to it :-[
http://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=4373.0 (http://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=4373.0)
Maybe a previous owner being heavy footed on the kickstarts or trying to shift stuck pistons. Damn.
Brian.
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Wow coxy.... I think Brian is right and you may indeed have THE first GTO!
Also from Graham Weeks Serial # I.D. thread...
"Serial number 6800 was taken from a Dealer Service Letter describing mods to the Carburettor Float Pivots on the production line. It mentioned that all bikes from "21..06800" would be fitted with the modified carbs. The serial didn't include the month code, but the Service Letter was dated February 1969 and so I originally guessed at "21N" (i.e. February 69) for ths serial. BS350s were built in discrete batches, and it is lokely that the service letter was issued while the 350 production line was closed down, and refers to carb mods to be made from the start of the next production batch. Thus I now suspect that 21..6800 hadn't been built at that time, and probably was the first of the production batch built at the end of 1969 - which would probably make it 21V6800 or 21W6800 (Oct or Nov '69) - unless, of course someone out there knows different! Thanks to Brian the Brit for spotting this one.
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wow!!!!
is it possible that the engine could be a leftover from the gtr production run of 67 as no numbers match .there are apparently no other cases that were from the place I bought it. this is awesome!
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Congrats on the very cool find coxy! And nice sleuthing Brian and Mike...
...bert
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Congrats on the very cool find coxy! And nice sleuthing Brian and Mike...
...bert
Thanks Bert, but Brian deserves ALL the credit for noticing the significance of coxy's vin number. ;D
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Coxy you certainly are a tinny bugger when it comes to rare BS bikes. Congratulations and best wishes. To answer Brian: to the best of my knowledge GTOs were not imported in the late 60s to Oz. All imports of 50, 60, 90, 100, 175 DT & HS, 350 GTR BS bikes were stopped in early 1968. The big year for BS bikes in NSW was 1967 when they outsold Yamaha.
Happy New Year
Ray
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Let me play the role of “Devils Advocate” here for a moment.
Since Bridgestone in all it’s wisdom decided that the GTO didn’t need its own serial number designation, all we have to go on apparently is a service letter announcing future changes to the 350 carbs for bikes produced after a certain serial number. So this, combined with a few other bits of production history/knowledge, is all we have to go on to say that 21W6800 is THE first GTO produced for sale to the general public.
Is that enough???? Would it be enough to convince someone to pay big bucks for it????
I have my own thoughts, but just wanted to hear what others may think.
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yeah that's for sure how much would it be worth if it is, is the big question ?
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pics
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ive got to say thanks to all cheers
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Don't want to hi-jack this GTO thread but you were discussing serial numbers, frame numbers and engine numbers. You mentioned serial number 9730 which is one of my GTRs. The frame number is 9890 and the engine is 9920. Just in case it helps with anything.
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sorry engine number is 9950.
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Well done Coxy! I wonder if Bridgestone was playing with the colors on the new (at the time) GTO model and decided on gold over blue. How would you like to be the painter and they told you... "Naw, I don't like the blue, paint it gold". I'll bet the painter probably had a bottle of sake under his work bench.
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hey tom I've never had sake but judging by his lines it must be pretty potent stuff!
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Thanks DL, you had previously only published the VIN for your bike. You still have the highest known (to me) VIN for a 350 on the planet. I'm not too concerned about the higher frame and engine numbers, some would have been pulled off the line for use as spares.
For a long time there has been a big gap in the VIN numbers, the highest known Gold/Chrome 1970 GTO being 7523 and the earliest White 1971 GTO being 8430 ----907 missing machines?
I wondered whether BS had left gaps in the VIN series when models changed but with 6800 coming to light and Moonpup's 6962 , that seems less likely. Also,the White GTO I have just bought is VIN 21 J 08012, adding, hopefully, another 418 machines to the known production series. There is still a gap of 489 machines between 7523 and my 8012. Can anyone add a GTO in this range?? . More numbers for all Gold/Black stripe GTRs would also help fill in some gaps.
Late GTO/GTR production may be complicated by small batches of different machines being made, possibly to use up available parts, as Moonpup has previously pointed out.
Coxy, sorry to hijack your post, but it's a good time to ask for VIN numbers. You certainly have the earliest known GTO on the planet, even if it doesn't prove to be the first. There are only 18 possible VINs that could disprove it ;D Congratulations.
Brian.
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Brian, Good job on trying to nail the production numbers down. Got a couple questions for you if you don't mind..... ;D
1. What's the last red GTR number that's been recorded/reported?
2. I haven't seen many 71 gold GTR numbers posted. What are the earliest & latest numbers currently recorded/reported?
Thanks...... da pup
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Just to digress, coxy, you need to try some sake. I have personally had some very religious experiences while consuming the stuff with my colleagues in Japan. It's not particularly nice to you the morning after, but still worth a go. Maybe add some sushi or sashimi to compliment. ;D ::) ;D
...bert
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Pup,
See Graham Weeks list for the highest recorded red GTR - Vin 06756, that's only 26 machines short of Kotaro's stated figure of 6782 total production for the red GTR. Kotaro is the only source we have for this early production information. I don't know his source but the figure is so specific, I'm happy to accept it as gospel. Same for the Gold/chrome GTO's where he was able to give monthly production figures that total 1000. Too specific to be a guess, factory source? Without access to BS production records we cannot improve on these figures and VINs to date, do back them up.
1971, all gold GTOs. DL's is the latest known at 9730, the earliest I've got is BSforever with 8753. Assuming all intermediate machines were GTRs that's 977, much higher than Kotaro's suggested 500 but closer to the number needed to give us nearly 10,000 350s built. Where are they? I know a few have been repainted in the earlier Imperial? gold which is a far more attractive colour.
SRpackrat has a gold GTO but I don't know his VIN? Think it's a 70s model.
At the moment, my data is just listed as I find it, will produce a spreadsheet and put it in VIN number sequence. Will also try to improve the colour and dating information. Some claimed colours are dubious due to repaints etc. This is the first time I have made a detailed assessment of the records but it is suggesting the last batch of machines was bigger than previously thought, although it's too early to draw any firm conclusions. We are getting there.
Will echo Bert's recommendation for Sake, might also come in handy for paint stripping on that tank ;D, Coxy. On second thoughts, don't strip it yet, could just be an interesting part of the BS 350 story, if original ?
To be continued, Brian. Good to see the site so active, helps to pass the dark winter days.
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Thanks Brian, now let me see if I got this straight.....
I put together this profile based on your research, Graham’s list & various posting’s I’ve found on the site
Red & Chrome GTR’s 1967-1968
Earliest – 00037 (fast idle)
Latest - 06756 (?)
Gold & Chrome GTO’s 1970
Earliest – 06800 (coxy) * Data suggests this is probably the first GTO produced.
Latest - 07523 (?)
Solid White GTO’s 1971
Earliest – 08012 (BRT-GTR)
Latest - 09503 (CL-100)
Solid Gold GTR’s 1971
Earliest - 08753 (bsforever)
Latest - 09730 (farmerdl)
*** The solid colored GTR & GTO numbers seem to intermesh with each other vs. one solid run for each. Is that right and if so, that's going to make getting a total number for each of those a real pain!
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Hi Mike,
Agree with most of the dates and models. I wasn't fully aware of the solid gold GTRs in the early days of my list and didn't always distinguish the models.
Red GTRs agree, Gold/Chrome GTOs agree
Looks like I now have the earliest solid white GTO with 8012 but agree with info for gmman010 and Tom Meadows.
Not happy about the magazine info for Livingstone (have copy). 9668, could be a frame number (claimed March 71 is probably right) and he does say it looks like it was put together from the dregs of the parts box, so may not be original frame. I think that makes Jens Jessens with 8533 the highest white GTO and cuts out any overlap but limits the max number of this model to less than 1000.
I messed up with BSforever, typed him in on my previous post as the earliest solid gold GTR but then saw the Dec 70 production date and changed it to Husker!! You are right, although built in 70 , his is a 71 model solid gold GTR. Will correct previous post.
I did see 21M09138 in 2015 at DK motorcycles in UK which I recorded as a white? GTR. It had one low pipe fitted and a high pipe strapped to the seat! I kid you not !! Now that would really mess things up. Will go back & check my data.
Now on GTR/GTO/VIN overload, Brian.
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Nice job guys! I, for one, appreciate your efforts.
...bert
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I have a "71 white GTO number 9503, which might help validate the 9688 number by Livingstone.
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I did see 21M09138 in 2015 at DK motorcycles in UK which I recorded as a white? GTR. It had one low pipe fitted and a high pipe strapped to the seat! I kid you not !! Now that would really mess things up. Will go back & check my data.
Now on GTR/GTO/VIN overload, Brian.
That must have been one of those super rare GTRO's! :o
If you see these bikes in person, always look at the upper right corner of the vin tag, as it will say whether it's a GTR or a GTO. (see CL-100's pic above)(Thanks Rowland, nice GTO & GTR!) Sorry Brian, this puts the overlap back in the picture. :'(
Also, I've added your updated info in my list and will do so in the future as more data becomes available.
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Mike,
'' I did see 21M09138 in 2015 at DK motorcycles in UK which I recorded as a white? GTR. It had one low pipe fitted and a high pipe strapped to the seat! I kid you not !! Now that would really mess things up. Will go back & check my data.''
''That must have been one of those super rare GTRO's! :o''
If you'd have seen it, it was more like a .......GROT. lol
The overlap will make sorting out production numbers more difficult but let see how things progress Brian.
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Is it possible that the lots were managed flexibly? Building GTOs and Rs simultaneously on the production line. (just to add another dynamic... :o ::)
...bert
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Mike,
'' I did see 21M09138 in 2015 at DK motorcycles in UK which I recorded as a white? GTR. It had one low pipe fitted and a high pipe strapped to the seat! I kid you not !! Now that would really mess things up. Will go back & check my data.''
''That must have been one of those super rare GTRO's! :o''
Is it possible that the bike with 1 high and 1 low pipe was green ?? Moonpup?
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Is it possible that the bike with 1 high and 1 low pipe was green ?? Moonpup?
Not unless Brian is color blind.... (good try dcr!)
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I was me that was green and not with envy, it was a shed. ;D :D ;D. It may have said GTO on the side tag, will try to find my original note.
I do remember seeing GTO on a side tag at DKs, that was when I first discovered the models were labelled as GTR or GTO.
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This is cracking me up...Nice one Dan!
...bert
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Hang in there, Bert. Brian.
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Guees you could say that I'm easily entertained. ;) :D ;)
...bert
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The next one i get 8) :o i,ll paint it that green color :-*,,,,, now watt was that color # ??????? just to be different!!!! ;D
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I recently posted a thread to the Bridgestone Group on Facebook requesting vin info. in an effort to gather as much data from as many sources as possible.
A kind gentleman replied that he had a couple letters from a source in Japan that might clear up some things. I surmised that these were possibly the same 2 letters from Kotaro that were already posted here on the site and I was right.
However..... he also replied that he had another one from Kotaro that included the actual monthly output for each year! 8) He said Kotaro got the numbers from the Japanese Car Industrial Society.
So here they are.... (unfortunately, they don't differentiate between the GTR's & GTO's which won't help with the 1971 350's.)
"This is official report by Japanese car industrial society (NIPPON
> JIDOUSYA KOUGYOKAI)."
> 1967: total ........4910
>
> June ................ 715
> July ............... 824
> August ........... 1506
> September ...... 1050
> October .......... 586
> November ....... 135
> December ....... 94
>
> 1968: total .......1872
>
> January ............. 42
> February .......... 32
> March .............. 128
> April ................ 325
> May ................ 225
> June ............... 600
> July ................ 520
> August ........... 0
> September ...... 0
> October .......... 0
> November ........ 0
> December ....... 0
>
> 1969 : total ........1000
>
> From January to October ...... 0
> November .........645
> December ........355
>
> 1970 : total .......1000
>
> From January to September ......0
> October .........229
> November .........271
> December ........ 500
>
> 1971 : total ...... 1000
>
> January .....0
> February ....500
> March ..... 500 ( end of month of 350cc's production)
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Mike,
What a find :o :o :o :o, this is the missing link in the BS 350 production story that we have been seeking for years. We now reliably know 9782 350s were produced in total, a question that has been asked many times
Notice the years totals are at the top of the monthly breakdown, not at the bottom where you would expect them. The 69,70,71 (post red GTR) production now totals 3000. Not 2000 as has been previously advised through Kotaro. Did he simply misread the information and the totals or did something get lost in translation when 90vfr750, Tony O, passed on the information in his post 10th March 2009, maybe. There's the missing 1000 bikes that I have been bleating on about for the past four years ;D .
As you say, we just have to establish how many White GTOs and Solid Gold GTRs were made from the 70,71 total of 2000, to complete the srory. Members, please keep the VINs rolling in, well at least trickling in ::), as you find them. If you see one of these machines at a show, dealers, breakers or museum, please get the VIN, model and colour if you can. frame & engine number, even better.
What a pity Graham Weeks didn't survive to see this information. He was trying to establish monthly production numbers by logging the lowest and highest VIN for each month.
A good day in the BS world, great job Mike. Brian. ;D
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Thanks Brian, but once again I can't take credit for anything other than passing on this data. Kotaro-san is the person that most deserves it, as it was his dedicated research that brought this to light.
Based on the headers in the emails forwarded to me by the gentleman on Facebook, this info was first posted to the Bridgestone Yahoo Users Group back in 2008. So it was "out there", but just never made here till now.
You're right though, Mr. Weeks would of had a blast with all this and it would have saved you 4 yrs. of head scratching! ;D
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We're the solid color 350s sold as 1971 models ,painted in Rockford Illinois?
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We're the solid color 350s sold as 1971 models ,painted in Rockford Illinois?
Paul,
It's not impossible that this happened but the final production batches 70,71 were built entirely at the request of and for Rockfords. No machines went to the UK, Oz or any other country except the US as far as I can establish. On this basis, I believe, it is most likely the bikes were factory painted.
Thinking about the VIN crossover for the White GTOs and Solid Gold GTRs, I wonder whether Rockfords asked for additional White GTOs to be produced because they were selling better than the solid Gold GTRs ?? They would have been in a position to do this.
Taking this further, were small trial batches of alternate colour GTRs (Blue or Green ) made toward the end of production in an attempt to extend sales ?? There is some photographic evidence for blue GTRs, another little question to answer. Coxy's tank is interesting, Imperial gold over blue, did they change the colour on the line or later resprays by owners ?
Late 60s/early 70s Rockfords were in a hard place having hung their hat on the BS peg, set up as the importer and having persuaded shops to take on dealerships with relatively expensive spares inventories. The big four Japanese firms had caught up and were overhauling BS in the market. To have it all fold after a relatively short time would not do their reputaion any good. Trying to maintain sales and shift the last of the GTRs, anything is possible including having machines resprayed in the US as you suggest.
Who knows.................. Brian.
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here is the other tank off serial#21w07275 this bike also has matching frame#
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moonpup maybe this is your answer for the green they just painted over the blue with the gold and no base coat?
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moonpup maybe this is your answer for the green they just painted over the blue with the gold and no base coat?
I'm confident there were never any blue GTO's from the factory. As I posted earlier, they did offer a blue tank (generic for both GTR & GTO) in the parts price list manual, along with a blue GTR oil tank and GTR battery cover. (Neither blue nor green show up as being available for the GTO side covers.) Your tanks could have been either replacement tanks or were just painted blue by a previous owner. The back of the side covers on the GTO's never got color sprayed on that side.... just the front side. If (as it appears) yours are blue on the back, that would suggest a later re-spray.
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on both gtos to be painted blue after being factory sprayed ? seeing the gold is sprayed over the top and is the same blue under I think that it would be more feasible that blue was unpopular colour and these would have probably been resurrected spare parts ? just a theory
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on both gtos to be painted blue after being factory sprayed ? seeing the gold is sprayed over the top and is the same blue under I think that it would be more feasible that blue was unpopular colour and these would have probably been resurrected spare parts ? just a theory
You did get these 2 bikes from the same owner did you not? And where did he get them? Maybe a previous owner really liked blue GTO's? Like I said, they could have been blue tanks as are seen in the parts manual and were from the parts bin. Without the history from the beginning on these 2 bikes, it's all just speculation.
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no one gto the 06800 came to the country late 80's or early 90's the other gto came in about three years ago .and both were on different sides of oz
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After 45 years and no access to factory records, (unlike most British manufacturers), many times , speculation is all we have to go on but can often lead to a sound logical theory or consensus of opinion that is probably 99% correct. Without definitive records the other 1% is out of our reach.
That is how myself and Graham Weeks agreed that 6800 probably didn't exist when the relevant Service Bulletin was produced and we speculated on why this happened and it's implication backed up only by known production dates. I didn't realise until much later that he gave me a credit at the end of his dating post which I very much appreciate. RIP
Surely we are all seeking the same end result, to fill in the gaps in our knowledge of these machines to which we are so addicted !! Sometimes, we are trying to replicate the thought and business processes that took place at BS all those years ago. Can only be speculation.
Lifes short, (it is at my age ;D) let's not fall out over this :-\ but continue to enjoy the posts and banter that we do so well on this site (look at the guest numbers). Share the knowledge. We have resolved a long standing question only this week - 9782! (mod - Not 6782, what was I thinking) Brian.
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Lifes short, (it is at my age ;D) let's not fall out over this :-\ but continue to enjoy the posts and banter that we do so well on this site (look at the guest numbers). Share the knowledge. We have resolved a long standing question only this week - 6782! Brian.
Fear not Brian, Andy & I are just having a little discussion on the color question..... all's good in da hood! 8)
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All good . Another point about Gto's pre dating 06800 , they more than likely had a pre production run as most company's
Mike as candy paint is expensive and we know that blue and yellow mixed together makes green maybe they were experimenting with different colours . Maybe there's a Gto with the same couloiur of frustration .purple !!!!
they had the primary colours
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In the Yahoo Bridgestone group pictures there is a posting of a Bridgestone barn find from Feb '08 that shows a white GTO with serial number 8370, which is a little earlier than the earliest white GTO in Brian's post.
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Actually, in the next picture is GTO number 8297 with some low pipes on it.
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Hi CL-100,
Read further down, for a long time 8430 was the earliest White GTO known to me but I now own 8012 which can't be far from the start of production. Won't hazard a guess or Moonpup will be putting on his devils advocate hat again. !! ;D ::)
Even so, thanks for the numbers, please keep them coming in, all helps to fill in the gaps. Should now be a lot more White GTOs and Solid Gold GTRs out there that haven't come to light yet.
Brian.
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Brian, thanks for the correction. I guess this thread has gotten too confusing for me. Moonpup, thanks for your efforts to keep the info straight.