Cylinder Puller

[Gerrit]

The RH ex port is closed, LH partly open in my case. So I tried an acetone/sunflower oil mix, tackling the RH piston first: nothing except for the acetone evaporating. After several attempts I decided desperate times call for desperate measures: pure battery acid. After standing for several days and cleaning away the dark blue sludge that formed above the RH piston (this done three times) the next shot of acid started to slowly run past the piston over a period of a couple of days. After rinsing the cylinders, crank and cases with water the next shot of acid ran down the piston slightly more quickly so I'll be repeating this until the acid drains past the piston in a matter of minutes, then switch back to acetone/sunflower oil.

WARNING: if you want to attempt this, wear rubber gloves and goggles at the very least!

[slawsonb]

Success!...

I'm not much of a picture taker, but I'll try to describe what I've been up to in this post.

I have spent weeks soaking the cylinders in my stuck engine. I used Liquid Wrench Penetrating Oil,  SeaFoam,  PB Blaster, and finally, per Skinny’s recommendation, a mixture of Marvel Mystery Oil and Acetone. None of these really showed significant results, although the flow out of the cylinders did speed somewhat over time.  I split the cases, took the top end off,  and soaked the cylinders from the bottom (engine inverted) with the MMO and acetone mix.

I built a tool per Tom’s design. Turned the engine back over,  tapped the cylinder stud holes on both cylinders (M10x1.5), placed a 2.125” metal disc on top of the  right piston and bolted the tool down. I cranked on the center bolt for all I was worth…nothing. Got my 2 ft breaker bar and repeated…nothing.  Applied heat and repeated…nothing. Moved the setup to the left side and repeated …nothing. Only succeeded in bending the bolt and stripping the nut welded to the plate (grade 8 no less…).

So as I mentioned before, I can be a little impatient and this situation had exhausted my willingness to wait for further soaking.

I revised the tool set up by cutting 4 equal length pieces from a 1M 10x1.5 rod of all-thread and threaded them into the tapped holes in the left cylinder. I cut a 6” piece of 1 5/8” steel pipe and placed it on the center of the disc on the left piston. Placed the plate, bolt side down  (this helped hold the pipe in the center of the disc/piston),  over the all-thread, installed washers and nuts, and ran them down until snug.  Once the plate was parallel with the top deck of the cylinder, I stated tightening the nuts a turn at a time. I did this until the plate (1/4”) started to bend at the corners…nothing.

Did I mention, I had exhausted my patience?...

At this point, I got my 32 oz ball pein, and began using the plate as a driver. I put  2x4’s under the front and rear of the upper engine case to prevent driving through the rods/crank (crank hanging from the pistons once the piston being driven began to move). Once the plate was no longer tight against the nuts, I tightened the nuts to keep the plate parallel with the deck, and repeated, and repeated, and repeated…The rings hung on the exhaust port causing the top of the piston above the rings and the rings themselves to break away (I was not concerned about saving the pistons). This also caused some minor damage to the cylinder wall below the exhaust port. Toward the end of the cylinder, I was able to use the the nuts to force the piston out the last 25 or so millimeters.  I then repeated the process on the other cylinder with fresh all thread and nuts.  The result was remarkably similar with minor damage below the exhaust port. In both cases there was no damage to the skirts at the bottom of the cylinder or any of the other ports.

I was also able to save the rods by using a worn wrist pin I had in my stash to drive the old ones (also stuck) out of the pistons.

…whew!...took the better part of 2 days…

The good news is I managed to salvage 2 matching repairable cylinders (which are rarer than clutch plates,  I think).  Not sure I would recommend this approach, but thought I would document it here for consideration.

I am pleased with the outcome.

My Puller tool is a little the worse for the wear.

Now I need to get an estimate from Millennium…

…bert

[old smokey]

'bert,
I know I posted info previously about Millenium Technologies and my GTR repairs.
Probably about $550 for both cylinders with welding repairs (I had to pay state sales tax, you'll have to pay shipping instead).
They would really like the pistons too so they can hone match a piston to a specific cylinder.
Wish I could say I have put mine together and could report on the results, but I have made very little progress.
And it looks like they do a sand blast clean-up on the exterior of the cylinders in case you care about original exterior appearances.

[slawsonb]

Smokey, thanks for the tip on the pistons...will definitely have to replace the ones I extracted (aka destroyed). I sent Millineum an email today to get the process started. I assume you are happy with their work. My plan on the finish is to have them vapor balsted when back from Millenium. Will have to see if they'll skip the blasting step.
...bert

[old smokey]

bert,
This link has one picture at the end of the second page.
I know I posted lots more, I thought in a discussion, but maybe it was just to my gallery.
Millenium gives a description of porosity with the cylinders when you get them back.
They were made that way and chrome plating hides a lot of it, but does not harm the performance.

http://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=2787.20

[slawsonb]

Thanks for the poiner to these pictures. I sent an email to the Millenium folks a week ago Friday, and have not heard back yet. Will give them another prompt tomorrow...
...bert

[old smokey]

If you need help let me know, I live 10 minutes away from their facility.
This link is to my gallery where I posted pictures of the cylinders before plating.
Somewhere is a discussion with pictures of them after plating. I think it might have been the discussion about cylinder exhaust and pin modifications during the BS production span.....

http://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;cat=102;u=57

[Gerrit]

Partial success at last.... though strangely with the LH piston, which is the one that has received the least attention because of the partially open exhaust port. It's now near BDC, and I've been able to put 12 mm in aluminium strips between the crankcase and bottom of the cylinder. Here's hoping!

[moonpup]

Without pictures, it's just a fantasy....

[slawsonb]

Excellent news, Gerrit!...sounds very promising...
...bert

[Colin]

Right, great Idea using that plate with a bolt to force the piston down but for the life of me I can not see why you would want to tap the cylinders, why not use the cylinder studs to bolt down the plate, four pieces of tube to take up the length to the thread area of the existing stud, pop on a washer and even use the old cylinder head nuts, I would have a piece of wood machined out to the shape of the piston to spread the load and put a bit of thin metal on this to prevent the bolt going through the wood too, and a flash with some heat wouldn't go amiss either to the outside of the cylinders too, but I would not go oxy-propane or oxy-acetylene because you could damage them, if the motors out the frame I'd be tempted just to turn it on it's side and pour lots of boiling water on the cylinders taking care not to get any in the bore because then the piston would swell with the heat and make heating the cylinders pointless.
I must remember to look on this forum first even when I'm messing with other bikes, this is a great source of ideas.
Colin.

[slawsonb]

The idea of tapping the holes is to lift the cylinder off the case past the piston, thus keeping the piston stationary and avoiding excessive loads on the rod and crank bearings. All the compressive load is on the piston crown and tensil load on the tapped holes in the cylinder. In my case this didn't work due to the degree of "stuckness" and since the holes we alredy tapped, I continued with it. I also had the advantage of having split the cases which frees the crank and further reduces the likelyhood of over loading the various bearings....
If the cylinders studs are used the crank must rotate (if the cases are not split), and on many of these engines it is likely to also have stuck/damaged bearings that would futher complicate getting the cylinders off.
...bert

[OldSwartout]

Right, great Idea using that plate with a bolt to force the piston down but for the life of me I can not see why you would want to tap the cylinders, why not use the cylinder studs to bolt down the plate, four pieces of tube to take up the length to the thread area of the existing stud, pop on a washer and even use the old cylinder head nuts, I would have a piece of wood machined out to the shape of the piston to spread the load and put a bit of thin metal on this to prevent the bolt going through the wood too, and a flash with some heat wouldn't go amiss either to the outside of the cylinders too, but I would not go oxy-propane or oxy-acetylene because you could damage them, if the motors out the frame I'd be tempted just to turn it on it's side and pour lots of boiling water on the cylinders taking care not to get any in the bore because then the piston would swell with the heat and make heating the cylinders pointless.
I must remember to look on this forum first even when I'm messing with other bikes, this is a great source of ideas.
Colin.

It's common practice on Kawasaki triples to tap the cylinder stud holes to pull cylinders from rusty engines, but the design is slightly different. 

I haven't had to do it, but to heat a cylinder to help get it off a piston, using acetylene or propane shouldn't be a problem; just keep the flame moving.  However, using a temperature gun (infrared) would be wise.  You can find them in the $40 range these days and are a valuable tool to have around the shop.  You can heat a aluminum to 500-600 deg. without damaging it (it'll burn your skin in an instant, so be careful).  You can also use a heat gun, but you'd probably need 2 or 3 running at once to get significant temperature into an aluminum part as big as the cylinders.

Having a temperature gun is really useful.  Checking system temperatures of air conditioning systems, heating bearings and other press-fit items for installation, etc.

[Colin]

Thanks for the in depth reply Bert now I know why you tapped the pots , I did not like that idea at first but I see the sense in it and having never had a piston that stuck myself I suppose you had no choice.
I like the infra red heat gun for $40 idea 
Colin.

[slawsonb]

Colin, I'm wishing you never have cylinders with as much "stuckness" as the last two I dealt with....man!...
 
...bert

[Gerrit]

Just got the LH cylinder off 10 minutes ago! As far as I can ascertain no cracks in the cylinder spigot as in the bottom pic Toystoretom posted on page 1. Whew!!
Now for the RH cylinder and that one looks like it will be a real b*****d!!!!!!!

[slawsonb]

May the force be with you!...
...bert

[moonpup]

Just a wild thought here.   Do you think letting them soak a while in evapo-rust would have any effect? 

Couldn't hurt... might help.

[Colin]

Lol so pistons seized in the bores are measured in a stuckness rating    well I probably only had on a scale of 1-10 maybe a four or five
And it seems you have had a pair of 9.7's  Bert
A 9.9 or a 10 being throw the motor into a deep river  or use it as a door stop.
Colin.

[slawsonb]

Yup, mine were way up there on the stuckness scale...too funny...
We now have Moonpup's Coefficient of Rideability (rideability as related to extra rear sprocket teeth), and Colin's Cylinder/Piston Stuckness Quantification Scale (self descriptive)...
Really need to describe these in a formal treatise to properly define...

 

I love this place...
...bert

ROTFLMAO