Vintage Japanese Muffler Restoration?

[ztnoo]

I recently posed this question to Richard and received his input on this subject.
Now I'm looking to elicit a broader response in hopes that some of you may have been down the path before and can offer suggestions and wisdom.

I read with great interest Richard's post on chroming: Chrome: The process explained: http://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=708.0
Actually I have reread it several times, but not having been through the process of chroming before, I am in need of learned advice.

I have been helping an Icelander look for Suzuki T200 mufflers for a restoration project he is doing.
I posted a thread about my search: Suzuki T200 Muffler Search    http://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=1693.msg6223#msg6223
I found them very hard to locate, but after about three months of searching, I actually located two pairs of mufflers.
They are unusual in that they are one piece head pipe/mufflers, i.e. the head pipes don't detach from the mufflers.
They were welded up that way at the factory.
That makes working on the interior very difficult.

I have two sets in my possession now, the second set I received yesterday, 6/23/11. The second set will be the pair going to Iceland after a complete clean up by me. This set isn't showroom new, but they have no pin holes or other problems with rust through. They do have a couple of very small dings, but these are relatively well hidden and I think for the time being will be OK for my Icelandic friend. I found in my search that beggar's can't always be choosers. The chrome isn't show quality, but I think is very decent and will fit Björgvin's needs, at least for now. I have explored the cost of rechroming, and I must say, it is an eye opener. Brown's Plating quoted me $65 a lineal foot.
Each muffler including the head pipe runs about 4', so do the math. 4' x $65 = $260 x 2 = $520! YIKES!!!

It took me about three months to find decent pipes at a decent price. I had tabs on a couple of other sets, but because the sellers couldn't or wouldn't provide good, large, high resolution pics of their pipes, I couldn't risk buying what they were offering. They simply couldn't justify their asking prices.....one wanted $575, and another $600!!!
I feel I got a damn good deal on the second set of mufflers.......$100 + $20 shipping.
 
The overall quality of the first set I received isn't bad at all ($135 + $35 shipping = $170), but there are a couple of problem areas.
My intention at this point, is to treat these pipes as a long term restoration project. Since I found the second set acceptable to send to Iceland, I feel no immediate rush to turn the first set around for possible resale.
Both pipes have some small areas in need of metal replacement.....perhaps using cut pieces from donor mufflers or weld filling.
One has a stuck baffle which broke off between the rear of the muffler and the first interior steel donut panel it passes through.
I have a couple of NOS T200 baffles on the way, and when I get them, I think I'll have a little better idea of what I can do to snag or hook the old baffle out.
Because I can't get at the baffle from the front because of the one piece head pipe muffler construction, anything I do has to be done from the rear of the muffler, thus making it a tedious proposition at best. I'd say the baffle retrieval is a 50/50 shot at best.

If I can successfully resolve the baffle problem, I really think these pipes probably need to be stripped entirely before I do or find someone more skilled than myself, to do the metal repairs.
I think I need to have the chrome off to see the true condition underneath and then closely analyze what needs to be done and where it needs to be done.
However part of the problem of stripping the chrome is I am told the pipes need to be liquid tight because the ends need to be plugged to prevent tank contamination in the plater's stripping tank. Given this explanation, I guess I'm going to have to find a way to get these mufflers (really one in particular) repaired to be able to possibly get them stripped.

Any advice about this and what I am thinking???
Do any of you know a welder/metalworker skilled in repairing vintage Japanese mufflers, someone experienced in working with thinner steel panels, repairing pin holing, small section replacement (from donor mufflers), and finishing to a condition suitable for rechroming???

Any help, advice, or info any of you can give me about this would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Regards,
Steve

[paul25g]

Steve,

Check out this link:

http://www.motocrosspiperepair.com/index.html

Never used them but might be worth checking out.

When I had my pipes redone, I sent them to:

http://danspolishingandchrome.com/

They did a really good job removing the dents and rechroming.

Only thing was, I had to clean out the interior of the pipes before sending them.  All of the 2-stroke carbon/sludge in the pipes had to come out.  I had an oxy/actl torch and just lit the inside of the rear of the pipe on fire and let it burn out...you can see something similar here:



You can search online about this.  One thing to mention is that it will discolor the chrome, so only do it if you plan on getting them rechromed.  Hope this helps!

Paul

[ztnoo]

Paul,
Thanks for your input. I see you are in Greenville, OH. That's not very far from me. I live about 25 miles northwest of Muncie, close to I-69.

I have checked out the dent repair guys, although I haven't used them either. It's my understand this method generally works best with motocross pipes which generally made of milder steel than street pipes. It dents fairly easily, but it can fixed fairly easily too. They plug the ends of the pipe and pressurize the pipe with air, something like 15-20 lbs. and heat the dented area gradually. The warmer pressurized expanding air pops the dent out. Of course this requires a pipe that can hold air, i.e. no pin holing or split seams or anything that would allow air to escape. Its my understanding it very effective and usually successful.

I my case with these street pipes, they aren't airtight because their are some holes and voids. I really don't have any serious dents or dings to deal with, so I really don't need to use this method. My problem is some pin holing and a few other areas in need of welding and/or patching with donor metal. Until I can accomplish that, the chrome stripping is out because the pipes also need to be liquid tight (for no stripping intrusion into the interior). Liquid tight is the inverse of airtight, but it serves the same purpose, for different reasons. I'm confident between burning the carbon out, soaking in kerosene to remove residuals, and then a soaking in Milkstone Remover to achieve rust removal, I can remove the contaminants for chrome stripping, but I have to make the pipes air tight by getting the flaws fixed first.

I'm pretty sure there's someone out there who has the skills to do these needed repairs. I know I don't. A ran across a site where a guy was restoring a Yamaha YL1 and had some dented pipes in need of repair. His solution was to crosscut the entire muffler, beat the dents out by hand, reweld, grind, smooth, and then rechrome. He sure had more gumption than I have and obviously a lot more metal working skill as well. The repair he achieved was phenomenal and left almost no hint of his major undertaking. Its a matter of finding that experienced and skilled person or persons.....

http://www.swarfrat.com/MufflerRestoration.htm  &  http://www.swarfrat.com/YL1-EMufflersRestored.htm

[OldSwartout]

I haven't seen it done, but always suspected you could grind the weld off the longitudinal seams and pull the two halves apart, clean and repair as necessary, then weld them back together like the original factory assembly process.  Cutting one across the pipe gives you access, but would require a lot of work to smooth up well enough that it wouldn't show in the rechromed pipe.

[Toystoretom]

I wonder  ....

A buddy of mine has a M/C shop and they have a hot tank. I'm not real sure what the chemical make up of the solution is (I know it has baking soda for at least one ingredient). It has an electric water heater element in it and it is very good at stripping paint and grease off of metal. It also eats aluminum alive and I do believe it removes chrome. I should have him tank one of my old mufflers and see how it comes out. You could leave it in there for days, I'll bet it would be pretty clean.

I had some old BSA mufflers rechromed years ago and the guy didn't even mess with the insides.... he plugged both ends so no solution would go in or out. I don't think they would try that today. That was back when there were chrome shops every where and there was a lot of competition for your business. I guess that ship has sailed.

[ztnoo]

Toystoretom,
If you run that experiment, I'd be very interested in hearing the results.
Regards,
Steve

[OldSwartout]

I've seen posts that guys took them to an engine or transmission shop or rebuilder and had them hot-tanked to get the grime out of the inside.  It's the process they use to clean greasy engine blocks and transmission cases prior to final cleaning and apparently works well on pipes.

[reed]

Go to Bridgestone teck talk and check out restoring mufflers parts1 and 2 .That's a great way  to get dents out of your mufflers.
Thanks.
Steve.
PS i made one for myself and i got some dents out  of some old exhausts.

[ztnoo]

After much searching, I finally found the direct links referred to:

Richard's Relics Bridgestone motorcycle parts > Bridgestone Tech Talk > How To > Restoring mufflers, part 1 ( http://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=830.0 )

Richard's Relics Bridgestone motorcycle parts > Bridgestone Tech Talk > How To > Restoring mufflers, part 2 ( http://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=831.0 )

I also am including the link to the caustic soda article referred to in part 1: http://auction.netbikes.com.au/vjmw.php?dir=wsexhaust&page=exhaust

I have been able to successfully burn the oil residue/carbon build-up from the pipes which will be going to Iceland (muffler set #2). Another trick I used to dislodge the remaining scale and debris after the torch burnout was to use 1.77 Cal. BBs intended for air guns. I have used these successfully in the past for rust residue removal inside gas tanks. I much prefer these BBs to nuts and bolts. While they might not have as effective cutting action as nuts and bolts because there are no sharp edges, the BBs are much less likely to hang up and get caught in odd angles and corners. They naturally roll quite well and with enough end to end and side to side shaking action, create the turbulence and agitation to knock down high spots and debris that can be accessed in no other way. I simply plug one end of the muffler with a one inch rubber cap (whatever size appropriate to the situation) used to protect chair and table legs, add a 4000 count container of BBs, cap the other end with a second furniture rubber cap, and shake the everluvin' daylights out of the pipe for a while. When finished, simply unplug one end and shake until you hear no more rattling. It is really amazing what comes out......rust scale, carbon chunks and powder, and even stuff I can't readily identify. Its a home brew, DIYer solution, but one that uses common accessible items to solve the tough problem of 'how do I get that crap out'? I then blow out with compressed air and examine with a flashlight. If more needs to be done, simply repeat the same steps. I may yet give the interior a kerosene wash out.....haven't decided yet.



While all the above cited articles are helpful for general and routine maintenance, my primary problem remains getting the metal repairs done on the first set of mufflers I received, the set not going to Iceland.....meaning weld filling of pin holes, and some possible replacement of small sections of the muffler walls using pieces from donor mufflers. Without the ability to get these tasks done, I have no chance to consider rechroming these fairly rare and otherwise decent head pipe/mufflers. So, if any of you have specific knowledge of someone with very good MIG (GMAW) welding skills which is known to be the best way to weld thin metals, and someone who has metal working experience with restoring vintage Japanese mufflers, please give me a heads up and pass the info along to me.

Regards,
Steve

[coxy]

after burning wash them out or spray wd40 or some sort of protective coating  if they are not used for a while they will rust

[ztnoo]

I forgot a few things in my previous post....but I hadn't generated the images yet.
Some tools of the trade I have utilized.....

plugs:



drill bit extensions, wire wheels, and coat hanger wire

[reed]

Steve
What was the outcome on your exhausts!
Thanks.
Steve.

[ztnoo]

Well, I've been cleaning them up.....but have had major interruptions because of my Dad's situation.
The interiors were really carboned and oiled up, but I think the oil (mixed with dry dust and dirt on the outer surfaces of the mufflers) in particular over time really helped preserve the pipes.
There's one very small ding on the bottom side of the left head pipe. Also one very minor, shallow dent on the bottom of the middle left muffler.
The right muffler has a small, shallow crease a short distance back from where the head pipe is factory welded into the muffler.
None of these little flaws would be very noticeable when mounted to the bike.

My carbon/oil burn out with a mapp gas torch worked great....both of those pipes smoked like little chimneys for quite a while once I got the carbon to burn on its own.
I also applied a low pressure compressed air stream into each pipe to aid in the burn off.
The only negative thing about the burn off was there was some bluing of the head pipes.......I would assume because of the temperature of the burning carbon.
I think I have the interiors about as clean as one could get them. I did a couple more BB shot sessions on each pipe after the burn off and got even more junk out. Not having separate head pipes and mufflers really creates a lot more difficulty in servicing the insides.
The chrome is still very healthy overall on the pipes with only a few small spots of surface rust, again on not easily seen areas. Minor surface scratching on the chrome everywhere, but not a huge problem. They are really solid pipes......they just don't look showroom new. After all, they are 45 years old. I also located a NOS set of baffles for the pipes and they are now in my possession.

The real dilemma is whether to have them stripped and rechromed. Since they are in such good shape, they are prime candidates to have chrome restoration. They might last years in Iceland they way they are now, but Iceland is a relatively warm and very moist place for as far north as it is...just south of the Arctic Circle. It has to do with the Gulf Stream getting that far north. Condensation would be a huge issue there with anything related to an internal combustion engine. Definitely Condensation City. Rechroming would add considerable length to the service life of the pipes, IMO.

I can't imagine finding a much better set of T200 mufflers. I have intensively searched for three months and only ran across 5 sets to pick from. One set was cheap but beat to hell, two sets priced too high with little pictorial proof provided by sellers to prove the worth of the asking price, and I have the other two sets (the first of which has pin holing and other rust through problems). It's not like these pipes are still growing on trees out there.....they are becoming very rare and hard to find.
I'm sure Brown's could have these pretty much looking like brand new pipes in a flash. The big drawback is the cost involved.
$265 per pipe to rechrome is pretty serious money IMO. It kind of becomes where do you want to draw the line and how far do you want to go. I guess that's every restorer's dilemma. Where does reason stop and insanity begin?

There's another set....possibly two, I am aware of from the www.t20suzuki.com forum. I emailed the seller, but have not yet received a reply.

I'll try to post some pics later today in the thread.

Regards,
Steve