Author Topic: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS  (Read 3056 times)

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Offline johnrkeele

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silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« on: May 17, 2023, 05:16:12 PM »
I did a preliminary first start on the 200RS I'm bringing back to life. The rpms were high enough that I necessarily keyed on-off for the few seconds I ran it...until I noticed sparks occuring between the rectifier plates, and so then shut it down. I checked for the wiring connections being done correctly, then started again, and same high rpm and sparks happening between rectifier plates. I think I know what I need to do to get the engine speed under control.
Question...what silicon replacement rectifier are people using to replace the original 'three-phase bridge all-wave (system) rectifier' currently on the bike? Thanks, John K.

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2023, 10:26:15 AM »
    You can use virtually any 3 phase, 5 wire rectifier but be aware of the size of the unit. Some are massive. I've sucessfully used these in the past on the 350 which used similar rectifier.
  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261313978134?hash=item3cd786df16:g:HroAAOxyGqZSX3NG&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwPrwwtBo03dn9CvUQNT7f%2Bj7p%2Fbzk1ymS%2F7wbtVDuR3NlOPIkz4%2BLaLyw7KQgUrO4lRVHEXjYKSTYzjW5592aNIe7uuG5WL%2F4r4Gn5nYGyxjyfFUvv3uonfMxTIMOrMqotdnb46lDzwgD5%2BNS%2BeNKdd1TbgcK7LEg8VujHZEy%2BwgObRyIZv%2BWEuu1bkRmW6MaB6UuYEPej6clHMOudoJ1vBt19ShMMZfe2Iz6qQdZxKGuzh1k28Fc6vd%2FSHpAqnxsQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8TzlPOFYg

  3 yellow wires from the alternator, +ve to battery, -ve to frame earth. I did have to attach a small heat sink.  It works fine.
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I'm so glad I grew up in the 60s & 70s. I did so much stupid stuff and there's no record of it.............Anywhere !!

Offline johnrkeele

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2023, 01:43:04 PM »
Thanks, BRT-GTR.  The rectifier you link to is the same one/source that I had put on my 'watch list' last night...and it makes me more confident on where I'm headed on it.

Now, topic shift, but same bike:  I can't seem to find replacement carb bowl gaskets to buy. The one's I've made are showing seepage right away around the screw holes.
Looking for a source for carb float bowl gaskets.

Thanks,
John K.

Offline Jeff Bar

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2023, 03:09:46 PM »
I bet Richard has those gaskets.  Jeff Bar

Offline johnrkeele

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2023, 04:58:45 PM »
I've not received any response from Richard when I've emailed him, as instructed, for these gaskets, and previously for other parts. This has been the case
 the several times I've tried to order parts from him.
John K.

Offline farmerdl

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2023, 08:33:18 PM »
For carb parts I usually go to Sudco.

Offline johnrkeele

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2023, 11:54:44 AM »
Thanks for the note suggesting Sudco for carb parts.  And I do have the silicone 5-pin rectifier ordered, but have the three-phase
rectifying accomplished with two 4-pin units arranged together to accomplish three phase while I continue with test start work/problem solving.

I thought I understood the immediate high speed from start problem, but I don't.  I've made sure the thottle slides are in fact
fully closed, but starts immediately go to high enough rpm that I'm still doing the key-on-key-off to keep rpm from going too high.
I'm perplexed. Is it possible an intake air leak can result in high rpm...with the 'fuel' being 'auto lube' oil being fed in? I observed
abundant smoke I think coming from BOTH muffler exits (inserts removed). And did see when I removed the carbs very noticeable oil
in the left side...but surprisingly didn't find much of any in the right side. (and when I then checked the rubber header-to-muffler connection
I noticed some wetness on the left one but none on the right.) So that further puzzles me. The plugs both looked about the same
light oil wetness when I checked them following the short run time.
So the question...what's making the high rpm, with the throttles closed?
Thanks,
John K.

Offline johnrkeele

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2023, 11:58:11 AM »
(noticeable oil in the INTAKE CONNECTION on the left side)

Offline johnrkeele

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2023, 11:54:44 PM »
Well, I have more information now than I had when I posted this morning. First, I 'motored' the engine by turning the rear wheel
with the trasmission in second gear, for confirming good injector oil supply to the right cylinder as well as to the left...and found it to be so.

Then I checked again that the smidge of 'play' with my repaired throttle cable was getting the throttle slides to full closure...but it was
'fooling' me on that. So I did some further 'dremel' work on the cable stop on the throttle handgrip...and got results. Not quite all the way
there yet, but now expecting that a little more material removal with the dremel will get me there. 

So I'm feeling better on the situation. Still need to get the carb float bowls to stay dry. Have checked that fuel level in the float bowls is at an
expected height below the top of the bowl. But my homemade bowl gaskets are not getting the job done.  And I haven't found OEM spec 
replacement gaskets yet.

John K.

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2023, 09:21:17 AM »
    The float bowl flanges and mating carb body flanges are prone to warping,  check with a straight edge.
    Mikuni added strengthening webs on later carbs to reduce this. I have reduced the warp by spanning the bowl
     or carb body across the open jaws of a vice and tapping down with a piece of wood and rubber hammer, (needs must or desparation).
    As a last resort, I use Hylomar sealant on the gasket.
Unspoiled by progress.
I'm so glad I grew up in the 60s & 70s. I did so much stupid stuff and there's no record of it.............Anywhere !!

Offline johnrkeele

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »
I hadn't thought about the warpage possibility. Will check that.
Thanks,
JK

Offline Old BS Guy

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2023, 02:35:44 AM »
The banjo fittings for the O.I. lines have a spring loaded check ball in them to prevent gravity flow when the engine is off. many times when you have one cylinder with an oily exhaust, that side will have a sludgy check valve leaking by and accumulating oil in the rotary intake area, or flowing down into the crank cavity where it gets pulled into combustion on start up until it gets evacuated and cleans up. Both of my 200's have this problem. Typical, especially after sitting for extended periods if the o.i. system hasn't been thoroughly purged and cleaned.
'65 BS Homer 50, '69 Mk II RS, '67 GTR, '70 GTO, '75 Taka 100, '69 Mk II SS.

Offline johnrkeele

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I found that carb bowl gaskets for Suzuki K10 look same as for my 200RS, and have purchased those from patriotracingindustries.

Now I'm having trouble getting the 'neutral change case' and its 'neutral change plate' insert to install all the way back onto the
5spd/4spd rotary shift shaft/lever shaft. It seems to hang up at the point where the 'plate' (copper insert in the 'case') should be moving onto the larger OD at the base end of the shaft.
Any thoughts/guidance here?

I also don't understand for sure how the whole system works...the two wires from the case to the shift drum is where the ground occurs when the shift drum is in 'neutral' position.
So the 'case', and 'plate' unit must function together for managing current supply from the separate input wire to the 'case' when in 5spd 'return' position, and when in 4spd 'rotary'
position. But I don't see how the 'plate' works within the 'case' to make that happen. 

Thanks,
John K.

Offline johnrkeele

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2023, 10:21:29 PM »
After working thru some fuel system and throttling problems, and with the 5-pin rectifier described earlier and installed,
I did a successful 'first ride down the road'.  When I got back, I decided to get a multi-meter read on the charge rate voltage being
delivered to the 5amp AGM battery temporarily installed. After a few seconds, with no lights on, and at low to moderate engine rpm,
the multimeter was showing 15+ amps charge rate and still climbing.
With that, it looks to me that I'd better be using a rectifier-regulator combination unit instead of the rectifier-only unit that is
currently installed.
Any feedback/comments here?
Thanks,
John K. 

Offline czmike

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2023, 07:25:11 PM »

Hi John,

I doubt that the charging system is capable of providing 15 Amps, not at 13 volts anyway (and not without smoke).
I suspect your test equipment is providing bogus readings.

If we assume you have your meter connected & set correctly then the reason for the bad readings could be due to interference from the ignition system sparks.
This is quite common with motorcycles that have no spark interference suppression. Digital multimeters vary considerably in their vulnerability to this.
Try this for a start:
Disconnect your hook up for the charging current test, i.e. restore the bike to its normal connections.
Then clip your meter across the battery itself.
Note the voltage with the motor stopped and then start the motor.
If the voltage reading varies widely or does not seem believable then I suspect you have spark interference confusing you.

Analog meters are less susceptible to this but I suggest you add some spark suppression to the bike to allow the meter to read correctly.
Fitting spark plugs with a resistor is a very good idea and will drop the level of interference dramatically.
I recommend the NGK R series plugs, so for your bike BR8HS.
This will not reduce the performance of your bike at all and I suggest it may well improve it.
There is a technical explanation for this.

Don't fit suppressor type plug caps! If you have them fitted already replace for caps without resistors.
Resistor plug caps fail, usually intermittently, and are very difficult to diagnose.
I've never seen a plug with a failed resistor and you get a new resistor every time you replace a plug!

Let's hear if fitting R plugs reduces the charge current reading!

Best Regards,
Mike

Offline johnrkeele

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2023, 03:12:59 PM »
Mike...my bad...I meant 'volts', not 'amps'...seeing soon up to 15v on the multimeter where the battery was showing 12.5 volts before
starting and revving to moderate rpm for a few seconds. On further quick check yesterday, I did see that, with the lights turned on, the volt readings
went down to more reasonable number...more like 13 to less than 14v at the battery.  Also, tho, on both rides, the engine responds well/runs well,
but with more than moderate/cruising throttle there is random engine miss, and would seem to get worse if more throttle applied.
Almost certainly is ignition based...ok again soon as throttle is reduced. Have not started to search this out. The right cylinder plug seems a bit less
'heated' looking, so I'm guessing that the miss MAY be on that cylinder only. (Before the second ride, I had changed from non-resistor 8H plugs to some
on-hand older 7H non-resistor, thinking that the plugs looked like they needed to be 'hotter' ones with the lighter riding I was doing.)  I do take note
of your suggestion to use resistor plugs. since I have always assumed that non-resistor might be better for better running/less troubles.
Thanks,
John K.

 


Offline czmike

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2023, 07:31:53 PM »

Ha Ha! Silly me then John - sorry for all the techno-babble!

The results you are getting is typical of a non-regulated charging system as in the Bridgestones.
Your idea of fitting a rectifier/regulator is a good one and will give you longer lamp & battery life.
The solid state rectifier you have already fitted will have raised the voltage a little from original.

I have obtained suitable rec/regs units from Tony at the link below for both my GTR350 & HS175.
http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/VRRPM.html
His VRRRPM3S would be a good choice I think (this size wasn't available when I bought mine) - but ask Tony. He is super helpful guy.

If your ignition condensers are not new ones then they would be likely suspects for the cause of your ignition misfiring.
Your description does sound like an ignition fault.

The best way to decide if a misfire is caused by ignition or fueling is to ride the bike with buds from an AM radio in your ears.
Tune the radio off station. You will hear steady firing all the time if all is OK with the ignition. Or you will easily hear any ignition misfiring as it occurs.
Especially without R plugs fitted, as the signal generated by the sparking will be stronger.

All the Best,
Mike

Offline johnrkeele

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2023, 12:53:04 AM »
Mike, thanks for guidance to Tony and link to his rectifier/regulator...will check that out. Also thanks for your thought on condenser
being a potential failure mode on the engine random miss. Since sending my last response, I did a stationary restart...and now it was
running just on one cylinder...the right header pipe was not warm at all. Tonight I pulled the tank off to start checking the ignition
system out...and noticed that the right coil has had a brown colored leakage, from the area where the wire to the spark plug exits
the coil (took a photo...will attach it if I can figure out how to do).  I can't remember when I've EVER had a failed coil on a
Japanese motorcycle... possibly this is the first(?).
John K.

Offline czmike

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2023, 07:27:10 PM »

Hi John,

The brown dribble does suggest that some coil insulation has oozed out, perhaps due to high temperature.
Also of concern is the corrosion of the steel coil former. This is composed of many layers of thin steel sheets called laminations.
These were coated individually with a protective coating originally. This coating also electrically insulates the laminations from each other.
The insulation is important for the coil to be magnetically efficient and to produce a good spark.
Eddy currents are reduced by the insulation and if present Eddy currents produce heat apart from reducing the spark output.
The coil may still spark (in air) but the output will be reduced and strong, consistent firing in the engine will no longer be possible.
The insulation has clearly failed so I would replace both coils, leads & caps. This may not fix your miss but they need renewing anyway.
The coils used in Bridgestones are quite good but no ignition coil lasts forever. They have a hard life.

May I suggest you get some of the neon spark plug caps at the link below:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/202780295435?epid=2108732310&hash=item2f36a5c10b:g:r1sAAOSwYp5j2NPf&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4IQMgY%2BeD%2FL6fYKmbYz33CEHYQF6frtS0metLrBvYF2iA9X2%2FQnTzFi%2BbSSZwwSFUHiAuovZ5IECE6eF4eoM%2BOcXKKws8iIpmmvb0GjGqj4H%2FAdka%2BWf4BtTiaoyIpb5hibQQW8KGnEy3%2FbhgbObqdes8h8j%2BsD534llPkRkHpr8%2F2pBRh0N0Y7y%2BzahJvePAZ7124BI89kdUKfQZHVlp1WRQnS%2FpQtmZkSd1A3wUGJg%2Bvo7MsdbhhQyvKiLNdWPvSHaDPGk0L%2FJd7oO3Zz7kB6W818oOdlkCw0d0y8cIpJA%7Ctkp%3ABFBMiuzIn59i

These are cheap, flimsy Chinese made parts but they are really useful for finding all kinds of ignition faults, especially intermittent misfires.
The behaviour of the light they emit gives a clue as to what's wrong. Dull light = low output; light flickers = misfires;
light reduces slightly with increasing RPM = normal - due to fixed Dwell Angle; etc.
Best used in the shed as they are not really bright.
Low tech test equipment is often the best for electrical problems!

Regards,
Mike

Offline johnrkeele

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Re: silicon replacement of original rectifier on 200RS
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2023, 11:38:28 PM »
Mike, I take note of your observations and thoughts toward replacing both coils including the plug caps. Tonight I set up for doing a test,
hopefully tomorrow, to see if switching the leaking coil to fire the opposite cylinder (the left cylinder) results in the right cylinder coming
to life, while the left cylinder misbehaves and its header pipe stays cold. (I've switched the white and black wires at the points to the
opposite points set, and switched the plug caps to fire the opposite cylinder.)

I also appreciate your suggestion on having some neon plug caps on hand for helping do doing ignition troubleshooting.

John K.
in Indiana





 


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