Bridgestone Motorcycle Parts Discussion Board
Bridgestone Tech Talk => Restoration => Topic started by: dcr on July 15, 2014, 10:14:24 PM
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As if I don't have enough projects already. I'm wrapping up restoration of a 50 sport and cleaning up a 100 Sport but recently found a 175 for sale close to home. I couldn't resist the price so of course I bought it sight unseen.
No gas tank but everything else was there. Heads were in a box but in great shape. Cylinders, not so much. Both stuck and the previous owner tried to get them unstuck by popping the heads off and beating on top of the pistons with a hammer. Both pistons are destroyed. Right jug appears to be undamaged but will need replated. Left cylinder is pretty beat, literally, but I will see if it can be restored.
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It looks like a little moisture got into the crank case. Everything else looks great inside but I have this bit of corrosion to deal with. Split cases yesterday and have everything soaking in Kerosene to get the heavy grease and grime loose. I'm amazed at how bad one section of the crank looks while the rest of the internals look brand new.
Going to send the cylinders out for replating and repair. Going to strip the rest of the bike and get the frame blasted and will ponder powder coat versus paint. Need to find a suitable gas tank, oil tank, left side cover and a few other items I'm sure. Much to my surprise, it has the complete tool kit in original bag and pad. It's probably worth more than what I paid for the bike.
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Picture of the tool set.
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Dan
That's how it started with me - first a 1967 175DT in 2008 => today 6x90s, 1x50, 2x175s, 1xchibi
WHEN WILL IT STOP!! ???
Good luck
Ray
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Hey Ray How About Some 350s GENE
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Hi Gene
I would love a 350 just need someone to pay the shipping to Oz.
Cheers
Ray
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Don't you get there by Tornado (Cyclone)...;-)
...bert
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I was just gonna say, maybe he could find some ruby Wellies and click his heels 3 times! ;D
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Ok Ray, all jokes aside, here's one you don't have to worry about shipping.... just bring your wallet. Oh and make sure it's full! ;D
EDIT: Sorry bout' the thread hijack dcr.... it just kinda went there ;D
http://classicbikesdirect.com.au/2014/07/18/bridgestone-gtr350-1970/ (http://classicbikesdirect.com.au/2014/07/18/bridgestone-gtr350-1970/)
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No worries - I think we all enjoy any conversation that is Bridgestone related. I played golf Monday and turns out my caddie restores old bikes. Mostly Harleys, but we talked bikes the whole time.
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Golf AND Bikes..... doesn't get any better than that! 8)
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Golf and bikes - 2 things my wife hates. But now back to our regularly scheduled program - my 175DT:
2 key items missing from this bike are the left side cover and gas/oil tank. Bike is 16E, so that gives it a May of 1966 birth date.
When did the 175DT go from the fuel tank being under the gas tank to having an oil tank on the side of the bike? My concern is I will end up getting the wrong tank.
Will the left side cover from any year fit ?
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Checking the parts list, the oil tank change was made at 16K, so yours will be the early one and you can tell from the photos in Ebay ads when they have the oil tank under the gas tank, most vendors leave them together. You can also tell the gas tank as the notch at the front of the tank is much more pronounced for the oil tank filler neck.
The parts list also shows different left side covers before and after 16K, but I don't know what the difference is.
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Just a guess but my 16F bike has the pull out switch for manual charging control ..... ! did this change on later ones i.e. side panel with no hole for switch
Regards
Bill
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Was the pull out switch a factory installed item? Also, what type of handlebars did the DT have? Mine have a crossbar, but I havent seen a DT with crossbar handlebars in any pictures.
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Hello DCR my 16F bike has the pull out switch which is a factory fitting there is still a label inside the cover saying if operating at speeds above xxx pull out ..... , the bike also has the oil tank under the fuel tank so yours should as well , the DT has no crossbar and i presume the hurricane scrambler did .... ?
Regards
Bill
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff101/gpzoduibh/Bridgestone%20175%20Dual%20Twin/P1010104_zpsfef5a26b.jpg) (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/gpzoduibh/media/Bridgestone%20175%20Dual%20Twin/P1010104_zpsfef5a26b.jpg.html)
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Not much of an update but my basement workshop is now filled with 175 pieces. Garage area is too cold Frame and associated pieces were all blasted to bare metal and primed. Next step there is to get frame, swing arm, both stands, oil tanks and the lower bridge painted black. I sent the front fork trim rings and parts of the rear shocks to Shelbyville for plating. I know they come highly recommended by a lot of you, but I wanted to see what their work looks like before I send them the rest of the pieces to be chromed - plus budgetary restrictions are in play here.
Rear fender is the worst of all the chrome pieces. The chrome here has definitely seen better days.
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Frame back from the paint shop. Long way to go before its all the way back together.
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Any thoughts on this being a usable engine case?
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While we are at it, any hints on salvaging this crank?
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I don't have an answer to your questions but if it's any consolation the crank and cases on the 350 I've just stripped look almost identical to yours. Only the water damage on mine is on the right side. We could get together and make one good one. A 262cc GDTR ! ;D :D ;D, that'd be a first.
I think it would be ok to use the cases but am open to guidance from others. I'm looking to acquire another crank or rebuild the damaged one with replacement parts as required. Won't be cheap as we all know. Good luck
Brian.
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Brian, count me in but only if we add a sidecar.
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Dan,
Sounds good to me but which side would the chair go !! Might be better with a Trike. :D :D.
I can fully appreciate how you feel, I was really teed off when I discovered the condition of my crank, the rest of the bike and engine is in great shape, you can't win them all but one would be nice. There's not much feedback on your questions, from other members. Brian.
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Dan, my opinions on your questions:
The engine case: The pits appear pretty deep. If they can be polished (more) smooth that would help to minimize the likelyhood of trapping oil and any foriegn matter. If this can't be smoothed alot I would say the engine case is suspect.
The crank: I would give it a good dip in evaporust (or your weapon of choice) and a good polishing with a fine wire brush or wheel after each soaking (may take more than one) to get as much of the rust as possible. Then assess the damage that is left in the same light as the engine case. Pulling the bearings and journals off the pins will let you get all the nasties out around the big end bearings. Probably all the bearings on the "bad side" need to be replaced.
...bert
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Thanks Bert. I may have found a crank with a slightly trashed right side and really good left side. If things work out, and hey why wouldn't they, I can combine the crank pieces to form 1 good one. Steve Reed, get your 175 crank jigs ready.
I am going to try and polish out the pits on the left side of the case to make it usable. If I cant use this case, I will be HIGHLY disappointed.
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I may be in the minority here, but if it was mine, I'd sandblast or aggressively wire brush the case and reuse it without worry. Covering/protecting the sealing and bearing mounting surfaces, of course. You just want to be certain there isn't any remaining debris to come loose and cause secondary damage.
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Yep, I have become so sandblasting averse that I forget to consider it as a good approach for this kind of a situation.
Karl, any downside from a bottom end oiling pov by creating too much clerance around the crank journals?
...bert
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Not that I'm aware of. You won't be adding much clearance, anyway, just blasting away the accumulated oxidation/dirt/rust. It'll just be a little pitted with a rougher surface than normal.
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Dan,
Took my corroded 350 cases to a workshop that does vapour blasting here in the UK. The owner is well known for rebuilding two strokes, particularly Kawasaki triples. His immediate reaction was, clean the cases and they will be fine to reuse. He had cleaned up and reused much worse in the past. So there's the answer to one of your questions. Get the crank rebuilt and you've got the basis of a good engine, that's the way I'm going.
Brian.
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Found another 175 crank with equal and opposite damage to the right side. I should be able to make 1 good crank with the good sides of these 2.
Anyone know what the story is on the center bearing? The crank at the top of the picture is the original 1966 crank - the one at the bottom is the one I just obtained. The center bearings are different, but the parts manual only lists 1 part number. The addition of the second hole and the elimination of the center groove seems odd. I was able to get a new NOS center bearing and it is like the one on the bottom picture.
Thoughts?
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If you look at your cases I'm assuming there is no hole for a locating dowel (pin) for the center bearing. The groove in the bearing is how the bearing was lubricated. There was no need to "locate" the bearing as the oil/mixture just filled the groove. The lower pic bearing is lubed via the two holes that line up in accordance with the locating dowel. I think I've seen three different type bearings. I will have to look, but I think the early one like you have in the upper pic is a ball bearing. The later type are roller bearing. Early parts books show the bearing and different seal (20mm ID vs 28mm) part numbers. Later cranks have a sleeve to adapt the 28mm seal. You may have a difficult time mixing and matching because the later bearing will have to be "lined up" by hand since there is no locating dowel.
paul
p.s. I've attached a pic of two types of roller bearings. One has a bronze cage with separate rollers. The other should be like the one in the bottom pic
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Paul, thanks for the info. I was able to slide the outer portion of the center bearing over on both and both are needle bearings. Both of the originals are shot as the needles are rusted. I won't know until I get them apart but hopefully I can use the outer part of the original center bearing with the new inner needle portion. Otherwise I'm not sure how this is going to work out.
Dan
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Maybe you can attach a pic? If you are going to the trouble of splitting the crank I would recommend changing out the complete new bearing and not mixing an old outer with a new inner.
paul
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Wish I didn't have to split either crank but both have bad center bearing, both have a conrod that has rusted bearing and a beat up side. Once I get them split, I will fill a box with enough good parts to assemble 1 good crank and ship the box off to Steve Reed for assembly. He has the necessary jig and press to assemble correctly.
Dan
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Toreador Red Metallic - looked good on the shelf. Doesn't match the original color like I thought it would. This is 1 light coat over a champagne metal flake base coat. The pictures don't really show it, but the champagne metallic base coat looks pretty cool through the red top coat.
Against the original side cover, the difference is painfully obvious. Im not totally against this color, but not sure if I am in favor of it either.
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A quick update on the progress of this bike. I found a local guy to tackle the crank issues. I have new pins, bearings and seals. Hope to drop it off Wednesday for rebuilding. Once that is done, I can get the motor together. I sent the rear fender and a set of rear shocks out to be re-chromed. Still waiting to get them back - long story.
I have gotten to the point of cleaning and "making usable" parts that I had previously wanted to completely replace or get re-chromed. I figure if I get the bike together and running, I can always replace or re-chrome those items as I get to it ($$$) rather than let the whole project sit and slowly accumulate pieces.
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Looking good, dcr!
...bert
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Richard posted a classified ad for someone else that was selling a Bridgestone 200 motor. I wasn't interested until I saw a 717 phone number which is my area code. A quick call and they guy is 10 miles from me. We met up on Saturday and it turns out the motor is a complete 175 from a Dual Twin. Its in pretty good shape for having sat for a very long time. Fortunately, the previous owner had the forethought to dump a lot of oil in the case to keep moisture away.
I don't really need a complete motor, but can definitely use a number of the parts in my rebuild and I hate to see this thing end up getting scrapped, which is where the previous owner was headed with it if no one bought it. I asked him where he got it and it turns out it was given to him by a guy I went to high school with. He had planned to put it in a backyard go-cart but never got around to it. Maybe thats a good thing.
The crank is in great shape but they right cylinder is slightly delaminated. Left cylinder is in great shape. I'm slightly curious how the alignment dots got so far off.
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I'm slightly curious how the alignment dots got so far off.
That's normal, each gear has an odd number of teeth and different from all the others. Another 100 revs or so and they'll all line up again.
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So, the dots get aligned when assembling the motor, but then due to having various numbers of teeth and being odd sizes, they become misaligned and then realign every so many revolutions?
Just making sure i understand this concept.
Dan
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That's correct, but the number of revs to realign would take a more complicated calculation than my old head cares to do anymore.
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As Karl would have gone on to point out had his "oldtimers" not kicked in (I can relate), its the ratio of the teeth on the various gears. Take the tooth number on the largest gear, divide by the number on the smallest and that will tell you how many times the small spins for one rev of the large. Same for the medium gear. It may take multiple spins of all to get back to the dots lines up state.
...bert
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Hi All,
More mental chewing gum ;D as dcr said in a recent post. It's what keeps us oldies going, I think mines lost its flavour but at least the brain cells are now down to a manageable number !! :D ;D :D ???.
Can't see the crank gear to count the number of teeth but it should have the same number of teeth as the gear on the alternator (17). So for every full turn of the crank, the alternator also makes one full turn and keeps the timing in sync. It don't think it matters how many other gears, or how many teeth they have, in the chain. They turn more or less than one full revolution depending on how many teeth they have, so the dots go out of sync. I also haven't a clue how many turns it takes for them to line up again. :-\
I did have to test this out on a gtr engine to get my head round this one. It has 21 teeth on the crank but doesn't have the fibre intermediate gear, so is simpler. ;) :D
Brian
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I did some quick math and the number of revolutions required to realign the dots is equal to the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop. You have to be at least 40 to get that reference.
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BlackJack does not loose it's flavor on the bed post over night (you definitely have to be over 40 to get that one).
...bert
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when I first got my 175 the previous owner had put white dots on the gears to do the timing . I lined these dots up by turning the motor ,unfortunately these marks were so far off it wasn't funny and he had ground off the lug on the dynamo presumably to turn the dynamo to tune it ? its easy enough just to take everything off and reassemble matching the marks up
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Anyone have experience on title searches? I've read the previous discussions here on getting a title and it seems to vary from state to state. There seems to be a loophole opportunity in Vermont - they will issue a title on any motorcycle if you provide them with a notarized bill of sale, Vermont DMV application, appropriate fees and proof of the VIN number. They will register the bike in Vermont regardless of your address and issue a title which can then be transferred to your home state. Not sure I believe all of this, but future investigation may reveal some truth to the matter.
My issue is a bike that was purchased with no title from a guy in PA that got it from a guy that got it from a guy. The bike had a 1976 NJ inspection sticker on it so I ordered a title search in NJ that came back as "no record found". I gave them the tag number and the frame number as possible VIN's to make sure. I'm not sure what NJ used for VIN's off the Bridgestone bikes. I cant imagine it was titled in another state based on the condition of the bike and the fact the NJ inspection sticker was still there.
I'm wondering if they might have used the number off the motor as the VIN or if a bike that hasn't been registered or tagged sine roughly 1976 would have fallen off the DMV records.
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FWIW, I have a 175HS from Wisconsin that is titled with the engine number from the clutch cover.
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Updated photos - rolling chassis. I'm getting there.
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She's sure looking good, dcr. Nice work!
...bertb
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Well here in Oregon the DMV likes to see 16 digets on the #s On my 350GTO there are no numbers on the motor... just that tag ??? ??? Once i took in a 1974 yamaha 200RD.... not 16 digets.... the women went NUTTS They seam to have only one way of thinking and its not vintage..... she said that i had alltered the ##s shit lady :o all of the are the same..title,,, motor,,, frame... ::) cost about 145 bucks to get it changed into my name and taged i hate going to the DMV >:( :D
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Hoping for some input and guidance from the group on the crank issue.
The crank center bearing is of the early style with a groove around the circumference and no locator pin hole. The parts manual has 1 part number for the center bearing, but has 2 different numbers for the center seal – 1 before 16B and 1 after 16B.
Anyone have any experience with these 2 different types?
I have 2 NOS center bearings, but both are of the newer design – locator pin hole but no groove.
I see 2 solutions with the items I have in hand. The first is to drill the case for a locator pin and use the NOS bearing as it is. The other option is to throw the NOS bearing into a lathe and cut a groove in it that matches the original. I suspect cutting the groove would be the easiest, but maybe drilling the case would be the better idea since it utilizes what the BS engineers saw as an improved method.
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There are more than just a couple types of center bearings and seals. I have three or four different types of center bearings. The two you listed as well as one with two center grooves and I swear I took apart a motor with a ball bearing center bearing. There are even differences in similar style bearings. I think I have three different styles of the pinned type. One with a bronze cage with loose rollers (there are rod bearings just like these!) and two with different diameter center cases with different size rollers. The seals main difference is the early type are 20mm ID. The later are 28mm that use a sleeve on the crank to step up the size. Even these sleeves vary with some being solid and some have an oring.
I've had a good machinist add a locating pin to a set of cases. Adding a groove to a bearing can be done but may require precision grinding. If I remember there may not be a groove in the early cases for the locating clip the keeps the seal in place. The early 20mm seals are wider and don't require the clip. If I had some more time I'd document most of this. I'll try and snap pics in the future and post them when I can.
paul
p.s. as far as I know the later seals with the 28mm ID are not available along with the sleeve.
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I think Richard has the 28mm ID seals, but not the sleeves.
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test
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Many things have just become a lot more clear - thanks for the explanations. Turns out all of the cranks I have are fitted with 28mm seals and have the sleeve pressed on. Getting the sleeve off looks to be an interesting undertaking. It has to come off to remove the center bearing inner race.
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I haven't had much good luck removing them. I always find one that I can clean up and use though. It occurred to me just now that since the bearing is going to be replaced, pull on it to try and move the race then move the bearing back to create a gap to pull the race. But I think I may have just chipped off the small lip on the bearing center race. It's been a while since I completely disassembled a whole crank.
paul
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I've taken some apart by pulling on the inner bearing race (also chipped a couple). It's been a while, but I think I used a torch to heat the sleeve and race to keep from breaking the lip. A thin chisel driven between the race and crank cheek also helps break it loose.
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Picked my cylinders up this morning from Powerseal USA in Phoenixville PA. $25 each to strip the old chrome plating and $184 each to replate and hone. They look REALLY good and I will say they did a fantastic job that took less than 3 weeks. Cash deal was $400.00 out the door - $443.08 if credit card payment plus any shipping costs.
One of the advantages of Nikaseal (thats how they spell it) is I can run the more readily available NOS rings that were used in the cast iron bored 90cc bikes. Actually, thats what Powerseal recommended - the harder chrome plated rings.
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The guys at Powerseal are great, have used them a few times in the past. Always very willing and helpful, and always excellent quality work and attention to detail.