Author Topic: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump  (Read 1441 times)

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Offline davis

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Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« on: April 03, 2018, 02:38:12 PM »
I have set up a bench test for the oil pump to verify pumping operation. Regardless of my best efforts I can not get two pumps to pump oil, so I wonder if anyone can offer a suggestion. The test was set up with an oil tank elevated about the same height as in the bike, 5-20 oil filling it and run down the inlet hose to a pump mounted on a side case fixed in a vise. The outlets empty into a open container. The shaft has the gear removed and is rotated by a 1500 rpm cordless drill (about 1200 rpm eqivalent engine speed) counter-clockwise. Results: NO OUTLET OIL FLOW at full pump control stroke. Took pumps apart for assembly inspection and they look good (timing was correct).

So, I've gone as far as I can, any ideas? Personally I need to see the pumps working before running the bike or I will remove the system and run just on mixture.

Thanks for any help.

Offline OldSwartout

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 03:44:09 PM »
I'm not sure of the timing, but if the internal port to the crankcase isn't fully closed prior to the pump beginning it's retraction, maybe the oil is being drawn back into the pump, just like trying to bleed hydraulic brakes without closing the bleed screw at the right time.  It may need the check valves installed at the ends of the hoses to work.
Karl Swartout
Mooresville, IN
BS175 Roadracer
BS350 GTR

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 05:20:12 PM »
            Spent a couple of days playing with oil pumps, last year, when I was having problems.  I agree with your direction of rotation.
        Also agree with Karl, with open outlets,  the pump is more likely to be sucking air back past the distributor valve in preference to pulling oil from the inlet port and relies on the check valves playing their part. Apart from that can only suggest warming the oil to improve its flow prior to the pump priming itself.

       If you mark the positions of the distributor ports on the gear and the position of the slot on the pump main rotor, you find the slot has already passed the inlet port by the time it retracts (at low flow).  How does it pump ? Couldn't figure that one out. There's more to these pumps than the manual indicates.  ;D                                          Brian.
       

« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 08:41:54 AM by BRT-GTR »
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Offline coxy

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 03:52:52 PM »
there should be some posts from graham weeks somewhere on the site and if I can find some old emails ill try to post them
what I usually do is test it on the bike with clear oil lines and run premix in the tank
one of my pumps ,pumps oil out of the right outlet fine but dribbles out of the left this caused a seizure ,

Offline davis

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 06:12:43 PM »
Lack of lubrication is my concern - seizures not welcomed! The bike appears to be running fine with the pump it has. The air slowly moved out of the clear tubes, and the exhaust has equal amounts of white smoke. (I don't know exactly what the volume and color of these exhaust gases should be so that remains a concern).

The pumps tested didn't pump, even with check valves installed on 2" tube. Finally got one to blurp out each port every second or two with full stroke control and 1500 rpm after soaking (priming) it in oil for awhile. (The stroke adjustment screw extends slightly beyond the jam nut). Doesn't seem right. Studied and understood how the pump works, even rebuilding them several times to familiarize myself with their function.

Perhaps these pumps don't squirt at all, but I have no way of gaging what the pump flow should be, so your experience is much appreciated. Thanks again guys.


Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2018, 07:16:22 AM »
         Hi Bob,
                  Sounds like your bike pump is working fine, you should get 350 miles per quart of oil as advised by Graham Weeks.
            The pumps don't 'squirt' oil, just 'burp' out a gentle slug from alternate outlets. Oil pressure is generated by spring on main rotor not power from engine as on a 4stroke. Black adjustment screw extends about 1mm from lock nut when correctly set.
       If she's smoking, she's getting oil. Too much smoke, screw in the adjuster 1/8 of a turn.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 08:10:54 AM by BRT-GTR »
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Offline davis

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2018, 10:09:40 PM »
Thanks for the confidence Brian. With this small amount of oil pumped I'm thinking oil flow is assisted by the crank case vacuum while the opposite side pressure is shut off by the check valve. Alternating vacuum action could offer a little steady assist in oil flow with check valves being indeed critical.

Offline husker

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2018, 08:27:11 AM »
Brian I came to the same conclusion last year while sorting out a pump problem. The slot is past the port so how does it pump?!.........Rod
1968 Bridgestone GTR350,  1971 Kawasaki A7SS, 1983 KZ750 LTD

Offline davis

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2018, 07:22:10 PM »
The cam with it's shaft moves up and down against the spring as controlled by the rounded end fixed pin. The resulting pump action causes a compression of oil at the cam shaft end. A tiny slot on the cam shaft piston end releases that pressure to the outlet ports while sealing the inlet port from releasing the pressure back through it. The oil distributor shaft is rotating at 1/2 the cam speed, thus in one revolution of the cam slot the distributor shaft rotates 180 degs. to hit both outlet ports alternately. This is why it is important to properly time the cam with the distributor shaft, since each outlet port passage should open up in time with high oil compression. The control lever also has a cam and moves the rounded cam guide to change the cam stroke action against the spring, thus reducing or increasing the volume of flow.

Anyways, that's the way I understand how it works. Hope this helps.

Offline Bridgestoneboy

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2018, 01:51:15 PM »
Adding to this forum, I have done similarly to what most of you have said and mixed my gas in my tank and have been testing the oil pump on the bike itself. However I too am having issues with my oil pumping properly and I imagine the issue is because of the cam not adjusted correctly with the black adjuster screw at the end. My question is, how do you know what the proper adjustment is of that screw? The left cylinder pumps perfectly fine, but on occasion the right side stops pumping at random, puts an air pocket in the line, and continues to pump. Seems that the manual has no directions on how to set this. Thoughts? Thanks for any help.

Offline coxy

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2018, 04:05:21 PM »
that  may not be sealing properly check the gaskets /connections  ,there should be some old  posts on the siteabout that
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 04:10:51 PM by coxy »

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2018, 06:02:24 AM »
        Oil Pump Setting :-
     Rough check - Tip of black adjuster screw projects approx 1mm from lock nut.
     Full check -   Use oil pump rebuild guide by Graham Weeks here -    http://bridgestonemotorcycleparts.com/index.php?topic=3629.0

    Fact that left side pumps fine says your pump is working as it should.

    The air bubble on the right side can only be sucked into the pipe, likely by the crankcase vacumn as the piston rises.
    You have an air leak, probably due to a split in the oil pipe or at the outlet union on the pump. Don't overtighten the banjo screw, can strip the thread in the zinc pump body. Replace aluminium washers or apply sealant carefully.
     You are not on your own with this issue. The pumps are very reliable  :D when sorted but making the system oil/air tight can be a pain in the ass !!   >:(
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Offline davis

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2018, 08:14:58 AM »
Bonded rubber washers solved my pump leakage problem. McMaster-Carr #93786A125 (High-Pressure-Rated Metal-Bonded Sealing Washer for M6 Screw Size, 5.8 mm ID, 11.3 mm OD). Need to replace a leaking drain plug washer with this type. Since the 350's seemed to seal well from the factory,it appears reused aluminum washers have a problem.

Cheers! Off to the U.K., but no Isle of Man this time.

Offline Bridgestoneboy

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2018, 05:23:29 PM »
On a side note, when I pull the oil pump off the bike and the oil from the pump side/side that mounts to the motor drains out, should I be finding transmission oil or injection oil? Seems like I may have a bad seal on the inside... :o

Offline OldSwartout

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2018, 08:29:42 PM »
Transmission oil.  There isn't a seal on the shaft separating the transmission from the oil pump.
Karl Swartout
Mooresville, IN
BS175 Roadracer
BS350 GTR

Offline Bridgestoneboy

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2018, 02:09:07 PM »
No but there is a seal between the injection oil distributer and the transmission oil side, I believe that's bad and may be causing part of my issue with my air leak. If I wanted to temporarly stop the oil injection and run premix until I find the correct seals, what would I need to do? Can I just stop the flow of oil from the reservoir to the pump, or do u need to replace the check valves with solid bolts to prevent it from drawing air after the flow of oil is cut off. Thanks for all of help!

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2018, 04:02:51 PM »
         GTR oil pump overhaul kit available from the UK here :-

            https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bridgestone-350-GTR-350-GTO-oil-pump-rebuild-kit/111702090764?hash=item1a01f6a40c:g:cb0AAOSwuMFUbyfz

        Contains the distributor valve seal if you can't source in the US.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 04:04:44 PM by BRT-GTR »
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Offline Bridgestoneboy

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2018, 09:51:35 AM »
Currently in the middle of rebuilding the pump after buying the rebuild kit from the UK (seems I couldn't sorce the seals in the states), but as I'm reassembling I have found that the the spring for the oil pump is either missing or just misplaced. Does anyone have any pictures of the pump interals or at least some dimensions of that spring. I have a spring that I am almost positive is the one for this, but I don't want to have to tear this pump apart again in the instance it is wrong. Thanks  :D

Offline BRT-GTR

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2018, 10:44:59 AM »
          Hi BSB,
                       Great job on the bike and engine, keep up the good work !!   Full marks for having a go yourself. We don't know what we can't do until we've failed a number of times (doesn't apply to parachuting and hang gliding  :D ;D :D) but even then we are learning all the time.

        Spring is 21mm long x 5mm diameter.                                       Brian.                         
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Offline Bridgestoneboy

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Re: Bench Testing 350 Oil Pump
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2018, 11:10:40 AM »
I come to the forum once again. This oil pump is proving to be extremely difficult and I have found no solution yet. I did just rebuild the pump with a kit from the UK, but only the right side is drawing air. I have switched the banjo bolts, bight new banjo bolts, bought new seals for around the bolts,  double checked everything. The left side/cylinder draws no air from the pump. I did however see that at one point air was actually pushed BACK from the check valve on the motor into the oil line. Maybe these two are somehow related? 

 


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