Author Topic: 175/200 Crankshaft Project  (Read 4620 times)

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Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2017, 09:42:25 PM »
I had the day off and had some time to clean up the crank pieces. Lucky for me Rob North has his shop about 10 min from my house. Great thing is I'm friends with him. (If you don't know who he is you can probably google him. He built the frames for the BSA/Triumph racers back in the 70's for the factory that won Daytona and a bunch of other races. He also did a lot of work on Don/Rick Vesco's various stream liners over the years including the Turbinator which still holds the record at 458mph of something like that).  I cleaned up all the sharp edges with some handy de-burring tools. I polished the outside edges where the fuel comes in thru the inlet. We talked about the press tool for the cranks. A bit of back and forth about my idea of using a punch press die set for the jig. I showed him some of the pieces and he wasn't seeing it. Great thing about Rob is he can usually picture something in his head. When I explained that I wanted two identical pieces similar to what I was showing him, he could see it. After we talked a bit more I said that I was still looking for a die set that would be big enough to hold the dies I want made. He then says to check under a shelf (bottom shelf) where he keeps a bunch of different press tools. There on the bottom was an old punch press die set from Rhor Industries used to make some kind of airplane part. Probably been sitting there 15-20 years or more. I removed the dies and cleaned it up a little bit. I'll take it to my work tomorrow and clean it up some more. Funny thing is scrap guys come to his shop all the time and haul his scrap metal away. He said if he would have remembered it was there when the came in last week he would have had them haul it away. 2017 is looking up already! I'll get some pics in the next few days.

paul
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 10:04:06 AM by bsracer »

Online OldSwartout

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2017, 08:48:09 AM »
Parts are looking good!
Karl Swartout
Mooresville, IN
BS175 Roadracer
BS350 GTR

Offline slawsonb

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2017, 10:27:51 AM »
Sounds like serendipity is alive and well in SOCAL.
...bert

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2017, 12:38:35 AM »
Not quite yet. The die set cleaned up pretty well. The height might not be enough though. I had pressed the outer webs off a crank so I can use it to set up the press jig. This is what I should end up with when pressing the parts together. Picked up some 5x2 steel rounds for the upper and lower dies today. I'll meet with Rob this weekend and see. I still might be able to get longer guide pins.

paul

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2017, 02:39:28 PM »
I dropped of a couple sets of BS stock 175/200 rods at a local auto machine shop to have the big end re-sized to a bigger bearing. These rods had gotten galled from the bearing cage. They will go from 25mm ID to 26mm ID. Should be enough to clean them up and save them from the scrap pile. Pics below are of the punch press die set that I'm hoping to use along with the 5x2 rounds that will hold the crank webs.

paul

Online OldSwartout

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2017, 07:10:11 PM »
Now that's an impressive find.  You could use that for all sorts of things.  What does it weigh?
Karl Swartout
Mooresville, IN
BS175 Roadracer
BS350 GTR

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2017, 08:52:49 PM »
The press tool weighs around 65lbs and the rounds about 25lbs. looks like it was already used for a million different things. Even has some pieces welded on the base. Unbelievable how smooth it moves up and down on the posts though.

paul

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2017, 08:29:04 AM »
             Seeing that press tool brings back memories. Spent two years as an apprentice toolmaker as my very first proper job. Had to wash 'em off with paraffin, take 'em apart and have all the punches and dies resharpened.   Every 3 months they would ship in the tool that punched the holes in 'Dexion' angle strip. Like the one in the photos but 20ft long.!! I set the record by turning it round in 3 days. Guy before me used to take a week and a half. I was quietly told to 'take my time', we learn, happy days.  :D
      Good job, Paul, we're all interested in following your progress.                                     Brian.
Growing old is compulsory, Growing up is optional.

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2017, 12:00:11 PM »
I had to retrieve the BS rods from the machine shop. They are too small for them to fit their boring bar and they tried honing them for a half an hour without much progress. Too hard for the stones to open them from 25mm to 26mm. I will have another machinist bore them out on the mill to within 0.003" (of 26mm) then have the first machine shop finish hone them. Just a minor delay.

paul

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2017, 08:52:39 PM »
I had the rods bored out to within a few thou of the final size. I took them back to the engine machine shop and had them honed to size. I now have BS rods that take a more modern big end pin and bearing with more rollers. I also had the machine work started on the crank tool. The machinist roughed out the pieces so far. I pressed in the new pins for the center and connecting rods and dropped them off for some final fitment with the machinist today. When I get everything back next week I'll snap some pics and hopefully start assembling a crank or two!

paul

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2017, 03:05:48 AM »
I got the crank tool back today. Still needs a couple of tweaks but I hope to put a crank or two together next weekend.


paul

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2017, 03:11:25 AM »
More pics

Offline dcr

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2017, 11:08:48 AM »
At what point will you be in the 175/200 crank assembly business??

Looks really good and simple as far as an assembly solution.

Dan
1966 175 DT and 1968 350 GTR

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2017, 10:01:57 AM »
At what point will you be in the 175/200 crank assembly business??

Looks really good and simple as far as an assembly solution.

Dan

I'm not really sure. This setup is for the webs that are modified for 20mm connecting rod pins and new 20mm center pin. I think it can be used with stock crank webs. I still have to make a small lever/arm to hold the web in the upper half. I also have to have some stops made so the cranks will be pressed to the proper width. I was going to use some old connecting rod pins since I have plenty of them. This only presses the center halves together very close to 180 deg apart. They will still be checked for true then the outer webs still have to be put on one at a time and trued respectively. One problem with rebuilding the stock cranks is lack of some of the parts. The center seals and the collar they ride on are not available. The connecting rods are getting pretty thin on NOS. There are always options down the road like using the Yamaha connecting rods like I'm going to use and having the 20mm pins ground to 19mm on the ends so the crank webs do not have to be modified. There is probably an alternative seal out there to use.

I'm just trying to get some cranks to hold up under race conditions. I've got $1300 in just the set up of the tool and machine work on the webs. Still have to factor in the cost of new connecting rods, pins and bearings. I also had some stock rods machined (around $325) to fit the 20mm big end bearing. these might also work for a stock rebuild as I mentioned above. The pins would be ground to 19mm on the ends and the whole thing would remain pretty stock. Before I could ever provide a rebuild I'd have to test them out (hopefully on the race track) to ensure they are going to hold up for street use.

paul

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2017, 11:39:37 AM »
I got the crank tool set up. I made some stops out of old 175 connecting rod pins. I have plenty of them. These ensure that the center webs are the correct distance apart. The pins are really hard. There is an automotive machine shop down the street from where I work. I asked if they could machine them to be all the exact length. They said sure. I cut down the pins to close to length (or so I thought) with a cut off wheel and die grinder. When I dropped them off the guy I talked to had left. I left the measurement and my number and the guy there said "do you know how long this is going to take?" I left and a while later I got a call and didn't recognize the number. After I figured out it was the machine shop I called back and the guy said if I came in sat morning, Greg (the other guy) would be in and he would probably show me the setup on their machine and let me do it myself.

Saturday morning I met Greg at the machine shop and he showed me how to setup the pins in a Sioux pin grinder. One grinder was more powerful but the pins were too short for the holder. The other machine looked to be about 50 years old but not as powerful. You have to make small cuts in fine increments. After a while and lots of sparks, I thought I was making enough progress to measure the first pin. I could barely tell I had it on the grinding machine. After about a half an hour I decided to take the pins back down to my shop and speed things up on the old bench grinder. I ground them to around a few thou of what I thought I needed. I went back and finished them up. My first measurement must have been off as I had to grind them a little more than that. After the first one was good, I finished the other two.

I pressed the first centers together later that day after making a simple arm to hold the upper web in the tool. Everything went just as expected. Pressed together very nice. The only problem is I thought the new connecting rod pins were within a few thou of the BS pins. The BS pins are 48mm and the Suzuki pins are 48.8mm. They seem to be too close to rubbing on the inside of the cases so I need to grind them down first before I can assemble the rest of the crank.

paul

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2017, 11:48:17 AM »
I pressed the center webs apart and pressed out the Suzuki pins last weekend. Went back to the machine shop down the street and borrowed their pin grinder again (well gave the guy $40 to use it both times). Shortened the pins down to 48mm and then took them to Rob North's to dress the edges. He let me use one of his lathes to put a nice chamfer on them. He has a big 40T press that is easy to raise the table to accommodate the fact the press tool is tall. I pressed two center sections together and now I'm waiting to check the alignment before the center pins will be tig welded to ensure they won't move. After that it's off to another friend's place to assemble the outer webs.

I'm racing on April 22nd so it's getting a bit down to the wire. I took the bike down to the bare frame since I didn't have all the bits to put the motor together. Found a few problems and already replaced the front fork seals. Need to add some extensions to the fork stops and give it a quick and dirty paint job (the frame). Hopefully I can get the cranks together today/tonight and start putting the motor together.

paul

p.s  Dan, you were asking how soon I would be in the crank rebuilding business? Still a ways off. I have to rely on too many people to get the whole thing done. I'm looking at a set of bench centers the will accommodate vee blocks to true the cranks and check alignment but the one I'm looking at is $500. Then I would need the measuring instruments. I'm tapped a bit thin since the races are right around the corner. Doesn't help that I just got the bill for some CNC work for new rotary valve covers.   

Offline dcr

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2017, 11:36:07 AM »
Impressive stuff here. I was sort of fascinated by the "press the crank together with no structural alignment mechanism" process that BS used. This makes it look a lot simpler than I imagined, but still looks complex. I imagine you are heavily invested in this setup.

Dan
1966 175 DT and 1968 350 GTR

Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2017, 12:28:00 PM »
It is getting up there. The crank tool works pretty good. The first crank pressed together pretty true. The second not so much. Not due to the tool but the machining might be off on the webs or pin. The first crank was true then we welded it and was off a little. My friend was able to true it up so we'll see. I'll put that one in a motor for the upcoming races in two weeks. The second one I think had a ridge on the center pin. It moved material when pressed into the web. I couldn't get it true no matter what.

I think I have to tweak the way the web holes are done. A jig boring machine would be the best for the job. Unfortunately I can't find a shop around that has one (well one that's not in the Aerospace specific). I did find a used Moore jig bore machine online in Tuscon for $650. Bummer is it's min Tuscon and it weighs 3800lbs! Nowhere for that in the garage. The bench center I was looking at did come down in price. I'll keep my eye on that.

paul

Offline skiri251

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2017, 11:39:08 AM »
> I'm racing on April 22nd

I assume this is ARHMA @ Willow Springs.
I may be there. There will be "Rider Clinic" event at the cart track and I may ride my BS200.


Offline bsracer

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Re: 175/200 Crankshaft Project
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2017, 11:18:44 AM »
> I'm racing on April 22nd

I assume this is ARHMA @ Willow Springs.
I may be there. There will be "Rider Clinic" event at the cart track and I may ride my BS200.

Yes. Then off to Sears Point he following week. I'll be in either a garage on the front row or the one by itself when you first enter the track. #108 yellow and red paint. Still got a little ways to go. Gotta put the motor and the rest together!

paul

p.s. See you there


 


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